Don't Eat Anything With A Face

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Food FinalCleanWeb

Illustration by Thomas James

Wednesday, December 4, 2013

According to a 2009 poll, around 1% of American adults reported eating no animal products. In 2011 that number rose to 2.5%--more than double, but still dwarfed by the 48% who reported eating meat, fish or poultry at all of their meals. In this country, most of us are blessed with an abundance of food and food choices. So taking into account our health, the environment and ethical concerns, which diet is best? Are we or aren't we meant to be carnivores?

  • Barnard 90

    For

    Dr. Neal Barnard

    Clinical Researcher & Author, 21-Day Weight Loss Kickstart

  • Gene Baur official 90px final

    For

    Gene Baur

    President and Co-Founder, Farm Sanctuary

  • Masterjohn official 90

    Against

    Chris Masterjohn

    Nutritional Sciences Researcher & Blogger, The Daily Lipid

  • Salatin 90

    Against

    Joel Salatin

    Farmer & Author


    • Moderator Image

      MODERATOR

      John Donvan

      Author & Correspondent for ABC News

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Barnard 90

For The Motion

Dr. Neal Barnard

Clinical Researcher & Author, 21-Day Weight Loss Kickstart

Neal Barnard, M.D., is Adjunct Associate Professor of Medicine at the George Washington University School of Medicine in Washington, D.C., who guides numerous clinical trials investigating the effects of diet on body weight, chronic pain, and diabetes. Barnard’s most recent study of dietary interventions in type 2 diabetes was funded by the National Institutes of Health. He has authored dozens of scientific publications, 15 books for lay readers, and has hosted three PBS television programs on nutrition and health, ranging from weight loss to Alzheimer’s prevention. As President and Founder of the nonprofit Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine, Barnard has been instrumental in efforts to reform federal dietary guidelines. He also leads programs advocating for preventive medicine, good nutrition, and higher ethical standards in research.

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Gene Baur official 90px final

For The Motion

Gene Baur

President and Co-Founder, Farm Sanctuary

Gene Baur, President and Co-founder of Farm Sanctuary, has been hailed as “the conscience of the food movement” by Time magazine. Since the mid-1980s, Gene has traveled extensively, campaigning to raise awareness about the abuses of industrialized factory farming and our system of cheap food production. His book, Farm Sanctuary: Changing Hearts and Minds About Animals and Food (2008), a national bestseller, is a thought-provoking investigation of the ethical questions surrounding beef, poultry, pork, milk, and egg production. It describes what each of us can do to promote compassion and help stop the systematic mistreatment of the billions of farm animals who are exploited for food in the United States every year.

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Masterjohn official 90

Against The Motion

Chris Masterjohn

Nutritional Sciences Researcher & Blogger, The Daily Lipid

Chris Masterjohn pursued a career in health and nutrition after recovering from health problems he developed as a vegan by including high-quality, nutrient-dense animal foods in his diet. He earned a PhD in Nutritional Sciences from the University of Connecticut in 2012 and currently researches the physiological interactions between fat-soluble vitamins A, D, and K at the University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign. He has published six peer-reviewed publications and has submitted one manuscript for review. He also writes two blogs. The first, The Daily Lipid, is hosted on his web site, Cholesterol-And-Health.Com. The second, Mother Nature Obeyed, is hosted by the Weston A. Price Foundation at westonaprice.org. The opinions expressed in this debate are his own and do not necessarily represent the positions of the University of Illinois.

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Salatin 90

Against The Motion

Joel Salatin

Farmer & Author

Joel Salatin is a full-time farmer in Virginia’s Shenandoah Valley. A third generation alternative farmer, he returned to the farm full-time in 1982 and continued refining and adding to his parents’ ideas. The farm services more than 5,000 families, 10 retail outlets, and 50 restaurants through on-farm sales and metropolitan buying clubs with salad bar beef, pastured poultry, eggmobile eggs, pigaerator pork, forage-based rabbits, pastured turkey, and forestry products, using relationship marketing. Salatin holds a BA degree in English and writes extensively in magazines such as Stockman Grass Farmer, Acres USA, and Foodshed. He is the author of eight books, including Folks, This Ain’t Normal: A Farmer's Advice for Happier Hens, Healthier People, and a Better World (2012). The family’s farm, Polyface Inc., achieved iconic status as the grass farm featured in the new New York Times bestseller The Omnivore’s Dilemma, by food writer guru Michael Pollan, and the award-winning documentary film Food Inc.

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Declared Winner: For The Motion

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Voting Breakdown:
 

59% voted the same way in BOTH pre- and post-debate votes (19% voted FOR twice, 36% voted AGAINST twice, 5% voted UNDECIDED twice). 41% changed their minds (2% voted FOR then changed to AGAINST, 3% voted FOR then changed to UNDECIDED, 12% voted AGAINST then changed to FOR, 4% voted AGAINST then changed to UNDECIDED, 15% voted UNDECIDED then changed to FOR, 5% voted UNDECIDED then changed to AGAINST)*breakdown for those voting the same way twice adds to 60% due to rounding | Breakdown Graphic

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    287 comments

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    • Comment Link Mauricio Tuesday, 26 November 2013 15:40 posted by Mauricio

      great debates!

    • Comment Link Head Ov Metal Friday, 22 November 2013 06:36 posted by Head Ov Metal

      Vegan for AHIMSA.

    • Comment Link DW Thursday, 21 November 2013 14:13 posted by DW

      Neither side is correct. Meat is unhealthy, but they are a high energy source in times of need when non-meat options are scarce. Vegan is not necessarily healthy because high fat, high sugar junk foods like donuts, cakes, cookies can be vegan and cause all the bad diseases mentioned associated with meat consumption. One should not eat meat if healthy vegan options are available, but one should not starve to death if otherwise.

    • Comment Link mcdmd Wednesday, 20 November 2013 17:17 posted by mcdmd

      Nutrient rich, fiber packed food that I can eat to satiation without risking obesity, diabetes, hypertension, vascular disease, osteoporosis, diverticulitis seems pretty straightforward to me. And Ph balance with an alkalinizing vegan/vegetarian diet vs acidifying animal based diets leading to calciurea and osteopenia and osteoperosis makes sense to me too. There is plenty of good data our there to support it and if you have any motivation at all you might find yourself shedding those pesky extra pounds that have plagued you all of your life. However, the typical American diet does keep physicians and the pharmaceutical industry in business. So I feed my family well, I am happy to help spread the word, but hey if you want to keep eating yourself into chronic illness go right ahead!

    • Comment Link Rahmat Tuesday, 19 November 2013 18:35 posted by Rahmat

      To be fair, the meats served in the fast food joints haven't been fed their natural diets, so they're not truly natural fats. Also, deep frying forms TRANS FATS, which EVERYONE knows are bad! Some people claim you can force your body to efficiently burn fat for energy if you restrict your carb intake to 50 g / day or less, and that if carbs were truly our body's preferred source of energy, we wouldn't have limited glycogen storage ability.

    • Comment Link Cari Tuesday, 19 November 2013 18:03 posted by Cari

      In response to Josh's comment posted Nov. 15: Reality: Very few farm animals are pasture raised these days. That is the sad reality.Most are raised on factory farms. So your comment about PCRM not reviewing data about non-factory-farm raised animals--whether this is truly an accurate comment or not--doesn't really mean a lot these days. No matter what side of the issue one stands on, most of us (including Josh) seem to agree that factory farming is not a good thing... for the environment, for the animals ... Let's all come together and focus on that. Maybe together we can find a solution to this horrible industry.

    • Comment Link George Tuesday, 19 November 2013 15:55 posted by George

      Does anyone ask what will happen to domestic animals if everyone stops eating them? Will PETA have them euthanased as they do with unwanted dogs and cats?
      http://scienceblogs.com/grrlscientist/2010/03/17/people-for-the-ethical-treatme/
      Humans being dependent on animals, and vice versa, is distasteful to some, but I don't think this is always a sign of respect for them.

    • Comment Link Kathryn A Tuesday, 19 November 2013 11:25 posted by Kathryn A

      Imagine aliens coming to earth, caging humans in cages so small they could not turn around, inseminating the females so they will have babies only to take those human babies and throwing them into a pile right after birth. Imagine the aliens then hoisted the males by the ankles onto an assembly line while the aliens slit their throats and then had television shows on how to properly store, disassemble and cook them. What would we think of them as a species? Cruel? Evil? Maybe some of them would look sadly upon what they are doing and have an ethical debate. Maybe some of them would make fun of those who dared to even discuss it.

    • Comment Link Carlos Brillembourg Saturday, 16 November 2013 06:04 posted by Carlos Brillembourg

      About forty years ago I decided in whim to stop eating meat,fish,dairy products and eggs. I enjoyed this change and was interested in the newness of eating fruits vegetables and grains; what today would be called a "vegan" diet. About a year later I was in a coral atoll in the Caribbean with a group of friends and they were to eat that night the lobster or langouste locally fished and I could not resist. So I ate my lobster and was very happy to do so without any adverse reactions. This was the turning point in my dietary habits. From that moment on I decided to eat whatever I wanted to and slowly I began to eat cheese, eggs,and soon thereafter crustaceans and fish. So from time to time I am at a dinner and I am served a soup made of chicken or beef stock and I drink it without much of a problem. I make it a habit not to tell my dietary eccentricities to my hosts. So, about 39 years later I don't want to eat birds of mammals--- not for any ethical or ecological reasons. Why does it have to be a binary choice? Are there just two positions? It seems to me that this is too reductive and not the correct frame for this important discussion.

    • Comment Link Holly Goulet Friday, 15 November 2013 16:53 posted by Holly Goulet

      We should be less worried about what we're eating and more concerned with how it was raised and where it comes from, ie. GMOs etc.

    • Comment Link Josh Friday, 15 November 2013 13:00 posted by Josh

      Dr. Barnard and his animal rights organization the Physician's Committee for Responsible Medicine (PCRM) use deception, fabrication, and junk science to scare people in to believing that animal products correlate with disease and that they are bad for the environment. How coincidental that Dr. Barnard is a former employee of PETA and that his organization collects money from them and is linked to other animal rights groups (http://www.activistcash.com/organizations/23-physicians-committee-for-responsible-medicine/)?

      Dr. Barnard and the PCRM use observational data to correlate meat with disease. This is not based on gold standard science, and somehow Dr. Barnard forgets that correlation does not prove causation in epidemiology. They neglect to inform people about this as well as the fact that their own intervention trials are done on individuals with a Standard American Diet. This means that in addition to meat, these individuals also consume excess sugar, refined carbs, processed food, drink more, smoke more, and have a sedentary lifestyle...... but somehow it's the meat that's making them sick? The PCRM has never conducted any randomized control trial on their own diets or on that of a whole-food omnivorous diet (so in other words, they don't control the numerous variables like a responsible scientist would).

      Randomized control trials done on meat eating do not show that meat is unhealthy. In 2007, such a study was done on the Atkins, Zone, Ornish, and LEARN Diets; the end result showing that the high meat-and-fat Atkins diet had better weight loss and better overall effects than the other diets (http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=205916). How can this be if animal products correlate with disease? Dr. Barnard and the PCRM can not answer this question because they rely on data done on a Standard American Diet so that they can extrapolate the results to all meat eaters. This is dishonest, and unscientific.

      On the topic of the environment, such subterfuge is also relied upon. Most data concerning animal farming and the environment are done on factory farms; alternatives (pasture farming) are ignored. There is no question that factory farming animals is bad for the environment. But why are these individuals ignoring the alternative? Pasture farming improves soil health (http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archive/mar11/soil0311.htm), prevents erosion (http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/engineer/facts/95-089.htm) and also helps with the release of gasses (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v464/n7290/full/nature08931.html).

      Eating meat provides us with a better, more bioavailable source of amino acids, fatty acids, vitamin A, vitamin D, vitamin B12, and various minerals. This is what the science shows. If you feel it's morally wrong to consume animal products, that's certainly fine. If you think that farm animals should be treated better, I absolutely agree. Going vegan for health, though? There's no evidence to support this; just observational data and science based on the Standard American Diet. That's not evidence; it's scare science, and that's what Barnard and his colleagues rely on.

      http://behealthynow.wordpress.com/2011/08/22/will-ditching-meat-save-you-from-disease/

    • Comment Link Jack Ryan Thursday, 14 November 2013 15:46 posted by Jack Ryan

      Herbivores are what omnivores eat for breakfast.

    • Comment Link GaryG Thursday, 14 November 2013 01:02 posted by GaryG

      When paleontologist study the bones and teeth of a long extinct animal they can tell the type of diet the animals had by the teeth in their mouths. For instance MOLAR like teeth would be for crushing and grinding and usually means the animal was an HERBIVORE. Sharp edged and pointed teeth mean the animal was more than likely a CARNIVORE. A combination of the two meant the animal was an OMNIVORE. Based on the evidence we HUMANS are omnivores. Our teeth are the type that allow for ripping and tearing just as well as crushing and grinding. A VEGAN/VEGETARIAN lifestyle eliminates half of what our bodies were designed (evolved) to consume in order to repair itself and remain healthy. ALL THINGS IN MODERATION.. That is my motto and how I live my life.

    • Comment Link Kevin Thursday, 07 November 2013 22:53 posted by Kevin

      Meat is murder and the reality is tofu is murder too:

      http://web.archive.org/web/20041107084521/http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html

    • Comment Link ADA Friday, 25 October 2013 13:59 posted by ADA

      I am vegetarian. My wife is not. While I think she'd be better off if she also became veggie, and of the reasons I became one, I don't force it on her.
      That said, at the grocery store I will not buy any meat for her that isn't free range and without add steroids and hormones. Organic is even better.
      It's our compromise, and it works for us.
      Now, on to address a couple of the comments:
      Nancy wrote "Only approximately 70% of our population..."
      Only 70%?
      While I appreciate MT's attempt to turn the tables Penny N., don't you actually make the point for also growing crops in a way that is better for the environment?

    • Comment Link Patsi Hansen Saturday, 12 October 2013 12:03 posted by Patsi Hansen

      Nobody can really ever convince me that consuming rotting bacteria ridden animal muscle can really do anything good for my body like balance out plasma or support my bones. My veteranarian scientist brother has been vegan since 1975. Stress was a major cause of my arthritis, and becoming vegan nurtured me back to health in body, mind, and spirit and I was able to sell my cane in a garage sale. It was a total LIFESTYLE change, many are unwilling to give up for whatever reason they concoct. I did not merely eat more organic broccoli for dinner. If we can just admit it is the lifestyle people are unwilling to give up, we can expose our frailties. For me, like many vegans in a non-compassionate world, it's the lonliness that is the hardest thing to overcome. I watched my brother go through the same thing for years. It is a long lonely road for some of us. But listen to your heart and free yourself; it's the right thing to do, and I believe deep down everyone knows that.

    • Comment Link Ann Law Friday, 11 October 2013 10:07 posted by Ann Law

      I used to be vegan/vegetarian for about 10 years, including running marathons and lesser lengths. Last fall I developed rotting teeth and a nerve/muscle compression. I'm pretty sure incomplete nutrition, lack of collagen, B12 etc. I'm not willing to get B 12 injections so I've started eating minimal amounts of pastured chicken (made into a deeply cooked stew with lots of veggies) and a tiny bit of the same done with organic pastured beef bones. One chicken or Cornish hen lasts me a month. I need to save my teeth. And like 75% of the global population, cow's milk products are out for me, plus there's a nasty aftertaste, even when from pastured organic milk.

    • Comment Link Karl Green Tuesday, 17 September 2013 19:28 posted by Karl Green

      "animals foods can be a part of a healthy diet" This depends on your evaluation of the meaning of "Healthy" I would say being a Vegan or Vegetarian is healthier for the environment and the individual without the unnecessary slaughter of a life form.

    • Comment Link mira Saturday, 31 August 2013 19:07 posted by mira

      It's not only a matter of health. Or if it is, then surely there's something glaringly incongruous about caring so much about human health and nothing about the continuing health of other animals. It's abusive to farm and consume other animals. Physically abusive, psychologically abusive, sexually abusive. And the more we study other animals the crueller it is revealed to be. Other animals deserve our care.

    • Comment Link Stefano DAmiano Saturday, 31 August 2013 17:01 posted by Stefano DAmiano

      Hello Nancy, I had never heard before that many "people require animal flesh and fat to metabolize their food and maintain a balanced blood plasma PH". Would you please share references and readings about that? I would like to know more. Thanks, Stefano

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