Wednesday, May 7, 2014
If consciousness is just the workings of neurons and synapses, how do we explain the phenomenon of near-death experience? By some accounts, about 3% of the U.S. population has had one: an out-of-body experience often characterized by remarkable visions and feelings of peace and joy, all while the physical body is close to death. To skeptics, there are more plausible, natural explanations, like oxygen deprivation. Is the prospect of an existence after death “real” and provable by science, or a construct of wishful thinking about our own mortality?
Neurosurgeon & Author, Proof of Heaven
Psychologist, Medical Doctor & Author, Life After Life
Physicist & Writer
Academic Neurologist, Yale School of Medicine
Author & Correspondent for ABC News
Neurosurgeon & Author, Proof of Heaven
Eben Alexander, M.D., is a renowned academic neurosurgeon. A transcendental near-death experience (NDE) during a week-long coma from an inexplicable brain infection completely changed his understanding of how the brain worked. He has spent the years since his NDE reconciling his rich spiritual experience with contemporary physics and cosmology. His book about the experience, Proof of Heaven: A Neurosurgeon’s Journey into the Afterlife (2012), has spent more than a year atop the New York Times non-fiction bestseller list and is contracted for publication in over forty countries. Alexander has taught at Harvard Medical School, and has authored or co-authored over 150 chapters and papers in peer-reviewed academic journals. A pioneering scientist and thought leader in consciousness studies, he has been a guest on Dr. Oz, Oprah, and many other national and international media programs.
Psychologist, Medical Doctor & Author, Life After Life
Raymond A. Moody, Jr., M.D., PH.D., is a psychologist and medical doctor. He is the best-selling and award-winning author of twelve books, including Life After Life (1975) in which he coined the term “near-death experience” (NDE), as well as numerous articles in academic and professional literature. His research into the phenomenon of NDE had its start in the 1960s, and the New York Times has since hailed him as "the father of the near-death experience." In the three decades since receiving his M.D., a PH.D. in philosophy, and a Ph.D. in psychology, he has lectured for audiences all over the world and has appeared on hundreds of television and radio programs. In addition, he trains hospice workers, clergy, psychologists, nurses, doctors, and other medical professionals on matters of grief recovery and dying.
Physicist & Writer
Sean Carroll is a physicist and author. He received his Ph.D. from Harvard in 1993, and is now on the faculty at the California Institute of Technology. His research focuses on fundamental physics and cosmology, especially issues of dark matter, dark energy, and the origin of the universe. Carroll is the author of The Particle at the End of the Universe (2012), From Eternity to Here: The Quest for the Ultimate Theory of Time (2010), and Spacetime and Geometry: An Introduction to General Relativity (2003). He has written for Scientific American, New Scientist, and The Wall Street Journal. He frequently consults for film and television, and has been featured on television shows such as The Colbert Report, PBS's Nova, and Through the Wormhole with Morgan Freeman.
Academic Neurologist, Yale School of Medicine
Steven Novella, M.D., is an academic clinical neurologist at Yale University School of Medicine. He is the founder and current executive editor of Science-Based Medicine, as well as the president and co-founder of the New England Skeptical Society. Novella is also the host and producer of the popular weekly science podcast The Skeptics’ Guide to the Universe, and the author of NeuroLogicaBlog, a daily blog that covers news and issues in neuroscience, but also general science, scientific skepticism, the philosophy of science, critical thinking, and the intersection of science with the media and society.
Eban Alexander: Carl Sagan "admitted that past-life memories in children, the evidence for that is overwhelming," for which he specifically cites p.302 of Sagan's "The Demon-Haunted World." Indeed Sean Carroll is right in calling this out as complete baloney. Sagan says nothing even remotely resembling what Alexander characterizes as his position.
I am for the motion. I think a lot of question that was not brought up that could of change the result for the motion. Like atom being particle wave which is pure science with full evidence. Atom itself is not solid matter because it is 99.999999999 empty space and it basically a wave particle and the only thing that is holding it together is a conscious observer. If our brain is made of atom and it self is a wave particle than how can it observing create solid particle? Unless the conscious mind is different from the brain than it observing can make all thing solid as the Buddha believe.
This question seems to have been extensively researched by sages In India where there are literally tons of literature . ( eg. Brahma sutra and may tamil sidhar's poems) ) All of them suggest that on death one takes along the "vasana" loosely translated as desires or tendencies and the good and bad deeds one does in one's life time. Life then is incorporated into another body where these are seen as the new person's abilities, tendencies and he reaps the fruits of his efforts according to the good and evil he/she had accumulated.
This is very comfortable to explain away the huge differences in life standards one encounters and also seemingly different results of almost identical efforts to achieve by two different individuals.
When someone says almost all the functions of mind can be simulated by triggering the brain regions, it is quite the same as saying one can bring about what the software does in a computer by shorting of selected leads of a micro processor chip,
While this corresponds to the effect, it still does not explain what causes this to happen. you cannot physically touch the software. So may be the mind is like the software and the brain is like the hardware.
PRESENT, TIME & SELF
1. The present is a special (moving) point in long length (long segment) of time.
2.“To me”, existence of I is a special (peculiar, unique, only one) existence.
3.“To me”, the span of years in which I live (my lifetime) is a special span.
4.“To me”, overlap of 1 and 3 is unthinkable, unimaginable (if life is only once).
5. Answer to 4, after death, existence of I will revive. Thus, life will be eternal. Also it must be the same for all.
P.S. Sorry, I cannot receive E – mail. I don’t have PC.
I think social influx made this debate too black and white. Collectively as a society we tend to consider the term "life after death", to be the individual continuation of human experience, particularly from a religious perspective. However, this does not take into account the dynamic nature of consciousness. In order to effectively answer the question of "what happens when we die", we need to determine whether consciousness exists elsewhere in the universe and in what form. If consciousness can exist independently of the brain, this is evidence to suggest that perception can exist independently of brain function, regardless of whether that is before birth or after death. However, this still does not indicate, or suggest, that the individual, or ego, continues. Personality, moods, and thought processes are products of mind, so if consciousness does indeed continue, it would furthermore be reasonable to assume that consciousness is an integral, elemental component of the universe, and is collective, rather than individual in nature. We are barely scratching the surface of this issue, thus to draw definitive conclusions in either way I think is somewhat naive. I think it will require the eventual synthesis of quantum mechanics and Psychology/Neuroscience to fully explore this fascinating philosophical question
If you argue against scientific methodology you admit to lack of critical thought. That is why I am surprised by the scientists taking such a rigid stance against life after death.
How can you be so doctrinaire about your knowledge when you don’t even know the fundamentals of your subject: quantum physics? They have categorically proven to themselves that consciousness changes the playing field of the physical universe on subatomic level - throwing out many of the classical laws of physics. Similarly, the placebo effect is mandatory in most critical testing, but they have no idea how it works - something else that consciousness is doing.
They admit to not fully understanding gravity, nothing really about most of the universe in dark energy and dark matter, completely adrift when asked to explain the leap from chemistry to biology, inanimate to animate, and haven’t gotten to first base with consciousness.
And where was the definition of “mind” they so doggedly argued with? Try to find in science, specifically the psych fields, a non-associative definition of mind that actually defines what IT IS - not it’s manifestations. They don’t really understand psychosomatic illness. Notice that when science runs into life, it tends to confuse its classical laws.
Is that why quantum mechanics hasn’t substantially advanced for almost 100 years? They need not take the route of conventional religion in assigning everything they don’t know to the gap god of Higher Darwinianism or something. Situations like this is where scientists actually earn the term, hubris.
This was utterly painful to watch. The gentlemen for the motion were, to me, babbling endlessly. No verifiable evidence to support their beliefs, whatsoever.. They consider hearsay and "experience" to be their evidence. They are not critical thinkers, they are wishful thinkers.
This was a discussion not a debate; it is almost impossible to debate as issue when both sides are arguing from difference presumptions of what constitutes the definition of "reality". Dr. Moody alluded to this issue in his opening statement. To me, Sean Carroll seemed to be the one who was less an authentic scientist compared to other panelists in this discussion. I do think the panel highlighted the issues on this topic for both philosophers/mystics and data based scientists. For me, it is a both-er; science only serves as the empirical vehicle to one's experience of the mystery of life.
Never doubt of one thing : Science is an unfinished and incompleted Art. It's a world built on "no end of evolving" assumptions at best partially demonstrated. Science is a view of the mind. Science is not a source of absolute certainties but rather a source of beliefs based on evidences subjectively interpreted as highly relevant. There is no better than a scientist to know that, so it is sad to note that they are very few among them to recognize it - these last ones are called "true skeptics" - if you really search you can find some of them generally among very high level one's).
Humanity consists of two categories:
- Those who lived NDE or Out of Body Experiences. These ones know that it's true. They can no longer doubt (even the most ardent "former skeptics" among them).
- And those who will live it one day or another. These can not yet know. So either they believe, or they doubt it, or they convince themselves that this is impossible, despite the absolute lack of scientific evidence in support of their belief.
But debate is pointless. The path of enlightenment always takes unexpected paths in our lives. Regardless of knowledge, belief, doubt or denyind a thing or its opposite. The important thing is the spiritual path.
If Heaven deigned to send us the percentage of "diehard materialist scientists" who have relied to a god of any kind on their death bed, in my opinion, it would be enough to die of laughing, as it must be high rated, right ?
Take care of you
I think the real question being debated here is whether there is a reality that exists beyond the physical. For those who are certain there is not, I ask, have you considered that you could be lacking the organs of perception required to be aware of that reality? For the determinedly materialistic, any attempt to understand a spiritual experience must be like a person blind from birth trying to comprehend color.
We are so blessed that Galileo, Einstein and Columbus and others like them met much of their "burden of proof". Keep on Truckin' Eban.
What Dr. Alexander experienced when he "died" was the dissolving of his ego, which allowed his mind pure perception for a little while. Since he probably never experienced this in life, his natural propensity is to call it "heaven."
I don't doubt what he experienced. But after the mind (brain) completely ceased functioning (which did NOT happen to him), he would then be not-conscious forever. And his matter would then decay, and his identity and essence disappear forever as well.
All the babbling in the world does not dispel the notion that man can neither prove nor disprove through science that God exists or does not exist. However, I would suggest to the true pragmatists out there that they read Pascal's Wager. You have nothing to lose but your soul.
i think that this is a bunch of bologna because how do people know if they haven't experienced it for themselves
Evidence, evidence, evidence. Provide verifiable, repeatable evidence. Everything else is speculative conversation.
I was not impressed by the debate. First of all, whoever arrange and picked the individuals representing each of the two side of the debate, failed to pick qualified experts. The individuals on the side in favor of the after life, were very qualified, but were not experts on the subject. A better pick would have been Bruce Greyson, and Pim Van Lommel. or Bruce Greyson and Stuart Hameroff, M.D. These individuals have a handle on the subject, and are a much better match for the opposing side.
I was not impressed either, by Dr. Steve Novella. I was quite impressed though by his partner, Sean Carrol. I do not believe Steve Novella really is opened minded enough nor knowledgeable enough on brain chemistry and consciousness, despite the fact he is a neurologist.
Al in all, it was not a fair match, and therefore an unequal match. Because of this, the entire debate was tainted in favor of the opposing side. Better luck next time.
Death is final for a life. However there may be different plane of existence. So the question is "Is there a life after the life?"
Our human brain is very sophisticated. It is also like an antenna which can tune in to see other plane of existence. NDE are like that. People can peek a preview of what could be of other existence like that.
A brain is part of a mind. A mind/a consciousness/an awareness is occurred when a human starts developing a brain. A life starts just before that. When a life ends, brain activities stop unable to tune in a mind until there is some sort of brain/antenna.
It is fair to state that people who claim to have had an NDE have had such experiences. There are a number of experiences which possess similar qualities. The descriptor "experience" is a huge umbrella which covers quite a number of things. Where you and I may wish to draw a reasonable line is when claiming that an experience is not solely one which transpired in the imagination and/or mind or is based upon a supernatural belief or wishful thinking, but that an experience is grounded in the physical world. It is highly probable that a number of NDE peeps may have had these experiences. For an NDE claim to be accepted as a truth claim and not solely as a product of the mind and such, the claimant may wish to provide their strongest arguments and supporting compelling, universally verifiable evidence. So far and to the best of my understanding, the strongest claims of the NDE experiencers have been thoughtfully and clearly refuted and there has never been any compelling, universally verifiable evidence in support of said experience. People can choose to believe in whatever they so wish. That is not an issue. The moment that a person claims any degree of certainty or truth about something, that is the moment that they need to step up to the proverbial plate by demonstrating and/or by presenting their strongest arguments and/or most compelling, universally verifiable evidence for their claim. Experiencing a potpourri of feelings due to an NDE does not ground such an experience as being outside of the experiencer's imagination/mind. I do not know if there is "life" after death. I do hope that our species will continue to explore life, the universe, and everything with reason and compassion.
NDE is exactly that ....NDE.
I have almost every day 1 NDE experience when I read the newspaper and I see the pain in the World.
I have 1 when the newspapers ask for new foto´s of a war in some country wile internet is full of old wars.
I have 1 when i see that people film a human on fire but does nothing to put the fire out.
I have 1 when I read how many people are affected by the economical crisis
I have 1 every time I read a sick story on people hurting each other
I even have 1 when I read that smart gents like yourself are trying to erase somebody´s experience by denying it.
Is his experience and not yours so you have just as much proof it did not happened as much proof as he gave you that it did happened. What makes you better scientists an why should the world believe your stories en or your explanations
As a species we are singularly egotistical! Why should there be life after death for us and not every living thing? Why should there be multiple universes based on every action WE take?(sorry, I had to add that in,) It's insane how we set ourselves on a pedestal.
This is an entirely human notion based on a deep seated fear of death, both for ourselves and our loved ones. It is of course comforting to think that people we love carry on in some other realm but that does not make it true. As always the"evidence" FOR is anecdotal and unproven. Remove emotion from the debate and you remove any opposition to the AGAINST position. I say this not because iI want it to be true but because it is. And no amount of, admittedly clever, analogy can make it true.
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