Don't Eat Anything With A Face - Intelligence Squared US

Vote
Comment

Sort comments by

Newest

Upvotes

IQ2

Karishma Singh

24 January 2019 - 11:10 AM

I was getting bored and then i found many things from this article and i was hoping for this informative article.Thanks for your appreciable work and i wish for more…

I was getting bored and then i found many things from this article and i was hoping for this informative article.Thanks for your appreciable work and i wish for more in future.You did such a great job and i hope for more.

https://www.escortsindwarka.com/delhi-russian-call-girls.html

https://www.escortsindwarka.com/call-girls-connaughtplace.html

https://www.escortsindwarka.com/delhi-indepedent-call-girls-aerocity.html

https://www.escortsindwarka.com/delhi-independent-call-girl-kashish.html

https://www.escortsindwarka.com/call-girls-vasantvihar.html

https://www.escortsindwarka.com/chandigarh.html

https://www.escortsindwarka.com/ghaziabad.html

https://www.escortsindwarka.com/manipuri-call-girls-delhi.html

https://www.escortsindwarka.com/hyderabad.html

https://www.escortsindwarka.com/amritsar.html

https://www.escortsindwarka.com/pune.html

https://www.escortsindwarka.com/mumbai.html

http://www.delhi-callgirls.in/

http://www.dwarkacallgirls.com/

http://www.dwarkacallgirls.com/dwarka-escorts/

http://www.delhi-callgirls.in/aerocity-escorts.html

Read more Read less

IQ2

Randy Martin

4 November 2017 - 12:56 PM

Hello J.S. Hays, you presume incorrectly as I remain against this motion on moral grounds. Please read my comment to see why eating meat could be morally superior to vegetarianism.…

Hello J.S. Hays, you presume incorrectly as I remain against this motion on moral grounds. Please read my comment to see why eating meat could be morally superior to vegetarianism. I understand the environmental concern and agree that until we learn to manage our effects on the environment it's irresponsible and immoral for us to go on polluting as we do. However, the environmental argument applies to many things that I don't think you or I are ready to give up and I personally would prefer solve the environmental issues without reducing my quality of life when possible. One way to do this is to move our society towards satisfying all our appetites in environmentally sustainable ways. For instance, if each farm came equipped with carbon and methane capture apparatuses which offset it's farms emissions would you then agree that the emission problem would no longer be a moral concern? If we further developed more and better methods of producing and recycling fresh water to supply the animals with all they need would this remove the moral concern related to waste of fresh water? All that would be left at that point would be the moral concern regarding the ethics of killing things with faces which I believe my comment addresses quite well. Also, what was the economic argument against eating meat?

Read more Read less

IQ2

JONATHAN SPERRY

21 August 2017 - 11:55 AM

, i was suffering from liver cancer, and the doctor's told me that there is nothing they could do to save my life. Then a friend told me about cannabis…

, i was suffering from liver cancer, and the doctor's told me that there is nothing they could do to save my life. Then a friend told me about cannabis oil , i told her that my liver cancer was in the last stage that i don’t think the cannabis oil will be able to help me out, and she persuaded me to try, , i decided to give it a try. I did some research and i found a doctor who helped me with the cannabis oil to cure my liver cancer and he assured me that after 4 months the liver cancer will be gone, and For the past one year my health is perfectly okay and i am free from cancer, if you know any one who is suffering from cancer you can save his/her life by contacting Rick Simpson via hisricksimpsoncannabisoil41@gmail.com, it worked exactly as the doctor prescribed. Thanks to Rick Simpson for taking away sorrow in my life. God will bless Rick Simpson for helping me with cannabis oil and for his support and care. contact: ricksimpsoncannabisoil41@gmail.com, i will keep on sharing this great testimony,so that everybody can see how cannabis oil fight and kill cancer, all i have to say is THANK YOU LORD.

Read more Read less

IQ2

J. S. Hays

27 July 2017 - 19:00 PM

After listening to “Do not eat anything with a Face” on an online “Intelligence Squared” debate in the U.S between Neal Bernard and Chris Masterjohn, I realized the motion against…

After listening to “Do not eat anything with a Face” on an online “Intelligence Squared” debate in the U.S between Neal Bernard and Chris Masterjohn, I realized the motion against eating animal-products was favored even in a democratic setting, where the vote sets the authoritative seal on a concern. Gaining the majority and having more of the persuasion, this negative motion is conclusive. The quality of the diet is insurmountable and the consensus is undeniable. There is neither the ecological nor the economical argument to be had to the contrary. I have been persuaded to live humanly as a herbivore, having been persuaded even to veganism only a week ago. I found the research was overwhelming in favor of a herbivorous diet, and I would presume everyone agrees on the motion against eating animal-products.

Read more Read less

IQ2

Randy Martin

7 March 2017 - 13:29 PM

Eating something with a face is a moral non issue. It's the way in which we force the animals to live their lives and the way in which we end…

Eating something with a face is a moral non issue. It's the way in which we force the animals to live their lives and the way in which we end their lives that's morally relevant. If I funded a spot on a farm for a happy little pig to be born and grow up with their little piggy friends before it eventually gets painlessly slaughtered, I've done a good thing by providing a space for that life to take place. Furthermore, the pig would agree that I've done a good thing as without my funding the farmer would not have had his mother bred and would thus, never have existed. If you accept that it's better to have a good life than to have never have had a life, then you should accept the conclusion that well maintained farms which provide good lives to their inhabitants are morally good places and we should be happy to eat their products. This is one actionable solution of many to the ethical objections associated with meat eating.

Read more Read less

IQ2

Marcello Di Santo

4 February 2017 - 17:59 PM

Haha, I'm sure some slave owners loved their slaves as well. I've heard this rhetoric before.... “People have a soul; animals don’t. Unlike us, animals are not created in God’s image,…

Haha, I'm sure some slave owners loved their slaves as well. I've heard this rhetoric before.... “People have a soul; animals don’t. Unlike us, animals are not created in God’s image, so when they die, they just die.” Joel Salatin from The Omnivore’s Dilemma"Jews are criminals, they have no soul, killing them is not a crime, but a necessity, just as killing rats” Eberhard Taubert from The Eternal Jew""“the black has no soul to be saved” Buckener H. Payne aka Ariel from The Negro"

Read more Read less

IQ2

Kyla Radbourne

3 December 2016 - 01:29 AM

I have eaten a plant-based diet for a couple of years now and have witnessed first-hand the amazing beneficial effects it has on the human body.

Read more Read less

IQ2

Jack Lindahl

26 October 2016 - 15:09 PM

Chaitanya is a huge scrub

Read less

IQ2

LaGrande Gunnell

26 October 2016 - 15:05 PM

meat is delicious

Read less

IQ2

28 April 2016 - 03:35 AM

On 2016-04-27 23:35:51, Robin wrote:In response to the so-called ethical omnivore, Lana Salant, there is an obvious flaw in your logic. A 1200 pound cow eat 24 to 30 pounds…

On 2016-04-27 23:35:51, Robin wrote:
In response to the so-called ethical omnivore, Lana Salant, there is an obvious flaw in your logic. A 1200 pound cow eat 24 to 30 pounds of grains, corn products or other foods that rats love to invade every single day. I don't know about you, but I have yet to see a human who consumes that much grain on a daily basis. In addition, the land needed to feed organically raised cows for human consumption is unsustainable. This is of course according to the United States Department of Agriculture (but I'm sure you know more Lana Salant). In addition to the millions of acres of rainforest (over 40% is now gone) and other lands that are cleared of oxygen giving trees and plants, it takes thousands of gallons of water to produce even a pound of beef. Studies indicate that the average meat eater consumes over 4000 gallons a day (this accounts for crop irrigation, drinking water, cleaning the animals, etc.) when you count in the costs for meat production, whereas a vegan only consumes 300 gallons in the same time frame. Energy consumption is through the roof when it comes to "livestock." The cost to house the 60 billion animals we eventually murder for food each year is staggering. To top it all off, more and more countries are choosing the Americanized diet, which means they are consuming more animal products. The cost is environmental destruction, rampant disease, human starvation, horrific animal cruelty, soil erosion, loss of biodiversity, and overall climate change. The worst part of this though is the myth of humane murder. There is no such thing as humane killing. If you pet an animal and then kill it, do you think it suffers less? Murder is murder. And this idea that we need to breed livestock animals to maintain the balance in our soil is absolute bunk. The earth has been around for 4.5 million years, and humans have only been on the planet for a few hundred thousand at best. We have not made it better, but have destroyed it with every poor decision we make. So people, if you are swayed by her flowery words and seemingly educated knowledge base, please think again. She is wrong. People who continue to eat meat are wrong. It is not only cruel and unjust to use other species as a commodity, but it is unsustainable practice that we no longer need in a world where we have access to so many other food sources.

Read more Read less

IQ2

2 January 2016 - 19:33 PM

On 2016-01-02 14:33:50, EdFaulkes wrote:Bloodletting, whether of humans, animals, insects or fish - is wrong. The dinosaurs were wiped out because they became too greedy and they were not, by…

On 2016-01-02 14:33:50, EdFaulkes wrote:
Bloodletting, whether of humans, animals, insects or fish - is wrong. The dinosaurs were wiped out because they became too greedy and they were not, by whatever power exists up there, wanted life to evolve into. Unfortunately, it looks like we are headed that way again. Blood is blood. Its colour is red because it serves as a warning sign when it is spilled. You cannot say you were not warned.

Read more Read less

IQ2

27 October 2015 - 20:07 PM

On 2015-10-27 16:07:39, Peter wrote:We all have known for years that high amount of process meat diet is bad for you. It is all about moderation. The research on how…

On 2015-10-27 16:07:39, Peter wrote:
We all have known for years that high amount of process meat diet is bad for you. It is all about moderation. The research on how diet affects health, the research on the link between meat and cancer has enough ambiguity that it’s possible to cherry-pick a research list that supports either position. What we have is a classic ivory-tower mentality: a group of academics who hole up in a room, make proclamations to the world, and ignore the chaos that consistently ensues. The best explanation to the WHO's findings and one that is not so lopsided can be seen here. http://scienceblog.cancerresearchuk.org/2015/10/26/processed-meat-and-cancer-what-you-need-to-know/ Will I change my diet to not eat meat? No, not really. I will probably cut out hot dogs, sausages, and hams; as those tend to be the mostly highly processed and contains much more contaminates. I feel my diet is balanced with vegetables, fruits, and organic meat. I also stay active and workout daily and minimize my sitting down to periods of no more than an hour.

Read more Read less

IQ2

22 October 2015 - 16:48 PM

On 2015-10-22 12:48:19, Raghunatha R wrote:Science Tells us only after invention of Fire as means of cooking food, humans started eating unnatural food , including meat. Before that humans were…

On 2015-10-22 12:48:19, Raghunatha R wrote:
Science Tells us only after invention of Fire as means of cooking food, humans started eating unnatural food , including meat. Before that humans were primarily vegetarian and some insect eaters. All animals on this planet eat only natural and uncooked food, except humans who have become unnatural animals on this planet.

Read more Read less

IQ2

5 October 2015 - 07:00 AM

On 2015-10-05 03:00:49, shanavaz wrote:
Humans and pre-humans have been eating meat for millions of years. Most chronic, Western diseases are relatively new. The heart disease epidemic started around 1930, while type 2 diabetes started increasing rapidly in the late 20th century. Cancer has also been on the rise for many decades. Vegans like to blame meat and animal foods for these health problems. However… meat is an old food and these health problems are relatively new. Blaming new health problems on old foods makes absolutely no sense. Our bodies are well adapted to meat consumption and we are perfectly capable of making full use of the nutrients found in meat.

Read more Read less

IQ2

27 September 2015 - 21:52 PM

On 2015-09-27 17:52:44, Cynthia Xerogianes wrote:Proof? The only proof I need is knowing that I am not participating nor supporting the misery torture nor cruelty of any innocent sentient. Vegan…

On 2015-09-27 17:52:44, Cynthia Xerogianes wrote:
Proof? The only proof I need is knowing that I am not participating nor supporting the misery torture nor cruelty of any innocent sentient. Vegan for going on three+ years, I have never felt or looked better nothing tastes as good as cruelty free feels and that's all the proof I need.

Read more Read less

IQ2

9 December 2014 - 09:01 AM

On 2014-12-09 04:01:12, philipcs wrote:Do not eat anything that has survival mechanism , they simply want to live...

On 2014-12-09 04:01:12, philipcs wrote:
Do not eat anything that has survival mechanism , they simply want to live...

Read more Read less

IQ2

4 December 2014 - 09:32 AM

On 2014-12-04 04:32:03, kat wrote:I am an american and I am close friends with a farm family who raises chickens for their eggs, raises pigs and cattle for pork and…

On 2014-12-04 04:32:03, kat wrote:
I am an american and I am close friends with a farm family who raises chickens for their eggs, raises pigs and cattle for pork and beef they raise them from babies and butcher them and package them into their freezer to feed their family through out the year. maybe most people dont want to take and live off the land but there are those who do it to survive.

Read more Read less

IQ2

11 September 2014 - 07:52 AM

On 2014-09-11 03:52:22, rhinoplasty gone wrong pictures wrote:
The 10% chlorella diet ԁіd a better job of regulating glucose than tҺe 5% diet suggesting tɦat chlorella may be helpful in preventing insulin resistance. Ƭhe Terminal Interruption оf tɦe Reflux Source (TIRS) technique ǥoes beyօnd traditional venous ulcer treatments, ɑnd attempts to target tҺe сause of tɦе ulceration. Ƭɦis procedure is for patients who have worn or smɑll teeth and foг people who ϳust need ɑ strong smile presence.

Read more Read less

IQ2

29 May 2014 - 08:38 AM

On 2014-05-29 04:38:31, Sander Gusinow wrote:My father was diagnosed with non-Hodgkin ten years ago. The doctors told him he would need chemotherapy in three years, again in eight years, and…

On 2014-05-29 04:38:31, Sander Gusinow wrote:
My father was diagnosed with non-Hodgkin ten years ago. The doctors told him he would need chemotherapy in three years, again in eight years, and his average life expectancy would be twelve years. He switched to a whole foods, plant based diet after seeing 'Forks over Knives.' We as a family were upset. We loved meat and ate it almost every meal. My father is thriving, and has not needed chemotherapy even once. At this rate he could live to be a hundred. I was highly skeptical until I saw the results. I decided to become vegetarian. It was hard for me. I had always been the one quick to point out that 'vegetarian' was a Native American word for 'Bad Hunter.' After many attempts I realized how addicted I was to meat. Eventually I cut out everything but fish. Now I'm full-on veg and feeling better than ever. I'm an extremely skeptical person. I have subscription to Skeptic Magazine AND Scientific American. But I can't fault the science or the results. Go veg. It's difficult, I know. You, like me, are addicted to meat. When you eat it, it dulls your taste to other flavors. Trust me though, it's well, well, well worth the investment. Also, pretty much all non-rodent mammals are sentient. (And I'm not counting out rats and non-mammals by any means) So if you are a moral person who thinks that we should treat sentient Aliens morally, if follows we should treat animals the same way.

Read more Read less

IQ2

2 May 2014 - 18:47 PM

On 2014-05-02 14:47:37, Will Egan wrote:To EJ Diaz, You're arguments are even more invalid than those you try to revoke. To your point that everything has carcinogens, that is like…

On 2014-05-02 14:47:37, Will Egan wrote:
To EJ Diaz, You're arguments are even more invalid than those you try to revoke. To your point that everything has carcinogens, that is like saying that the sun and an enriched rod of uranium-235 have the same effect on your health because their both radioactive, the point is meat has far MORE carcinogens which lead to the health concerns mentioned in the debate such as heart disease. Also there is adequate scientific evidence to support that arterial degradation occurs based on meat consumption that factored in other variables like overall diet. Also veganism has been documented as early as the 5th century A.D. practices by yogis in China, who thrived based on the diet despite their ethnic differences between the contemporary Anglo-Saxon descendants who adopted the practice. Also reinvention of a dietary practice is anti-evolutionary? Would you also say that the polar bears change in diet faced with shrinking ice caps is also anti-evolutionary, because I think you might not know what evolution is.

Read more Read less

IQ2

9 April 2014 - 11:52 AM

On 2014-04-09 07:52:42, EJ Diaz wrote:It was an enlightening debate. Here's what I learned about the vegan position in contrast to the omnivore position: Close-minded: Inherent in the title is…

On 2014-04-09 07:52:42, EJ Diaz wrote:
It was an enlightening debate. Here's what I learned about the vegan position in contrast to the omnivore position: Close-minded: Inherent in the title is "[no one] should eat anything with a face". There's no room for omnivores. Anti-evolution: Imposing a one-diet-fits-all model even though it is unnatural for our evolutionary system based on VARIATION. Yet, with no historical or anthropological evidence, the vegans assume that all peoples everywhere will have the same nutritional needs genetically. Wishful thinking. Ethno-centric: Not every culture has access to the vast array of pills, powders and produce that wealthy westerners take for granted. Weak science: Fallacy's abound! Avoid meat because it has carcinogenic elements? Bollocks. False-dichotomy. Carcinogens are everywhere. Toast is carcinogenic! The question is, do the benefits of a particular food/diet outweigh the carcinogens that you will ingest regardless? And that overly-simplistic blame-meat story of the patient with bad arteries, not a word about his overall diet. Interesting. Also, no historical/anthropological evidence that veganism even works long-term because there has been no documented culture that has ever been purely vegan for generations. And there are no farming methods of significance to point to either, unless you count the 2 vegan farms mentioned, the older one having been around for a mere 3 decades. *sigh* No tangible, long-term working models; only theories. This shoddy evidence seems more an excuse to simply promote their ethic, "killing animals is wrong". Of course it's noble, but this is not a position empirically provable with science. It is ultimately a BELIEF. So ... In short, the vegans use weak scientific arguments to promote a belief system that is ultimately close-minded, anti-evolution and ethno-centric. WOAH! Is it just me or does that sound familiar? I don't know what's more alarming, that such faulty belief systems get a pass, or that they were able to convert the audience with their rhetoric and come away the winners in the debate (even though the opposition had an open- minded, pro-evolution, non-ethnocentric position with solid current, historical and anthropological evidence: a working model farm based on millennia of farming tradition, Weston Price's multicultural research highlighting the benefits of an omnivore diet, and an ethic that treats animals as sacred in the harmonious way of the Native Americans) An enlightening debate, indeed.

Read more Read less

IQ2

7 April 2014 - 06:06 AM

On 2014-04-07 02:06:03, dara wedel wrote:Compassion is delicious! FOR THE MOTION!! xxx

On 2014-04-07 02:06:03, dara wedel wrote:
Compassion is delicious! FOR THE MOTION!! xxx

Read more Read less

IQ2

14 March 2014 - 22:22 PM

On 2014-03-14 18:22:25, Nathan wrote:The research the vegetarians presented are false. Meat does not cause heart disease as proof that I am a paleo dieter, eat meat at every meal,…

On 2014-03-14 18:22:25, Nathan wrote:
The research the vegetarians presented are false. Meat does not cause heart disease as proof that I am a paleo dieter, eat meat at every meal, eat lots of butter and cheese, and yet I lose weight AND have reduced my cholesterol levels. The studies mentioned did not take into account carbohydrate intake, which causes inflammation.

Read more Read less

IQ2

14 March 2014 - 21:02 PM

On 2014-03-14 17:02:53, Jan wrote:I grew up in South America, Buenos Aires, and as it is a huge meat eating country, so did we eat dead corpses which would be…

On 2014-03-14 17:02:53, Jan wrote:
I grew up in South America, Buenos Aires, and as it is a huge meat eating country, so did we eat dead corpses which would be barbecued on the huge grill under our pool I never thought anything of it well into my older years... I became veggie in my 30's but still did not see the link that animals have souls, have the same organs, blood, feelings, emotions etc as we do. It's only by seeing films like earthlings.com and meet your meat, and listening to Phillip Wollen that helps educate one towards a more compassionate way of living.... to me a dog is a cat is a cow is a chicken, all animals feel pain, and as ex rancher The Mad Cowboy Howard Lyman turned vegan says... Sure, certain methods of production are more ‘humane’ than others, but never forget, there’s no such thing as humane slaughter. I never saw an animal clicking its heels going to the slaughterhouse, saying, “Yippee, skippy, I’m going to be a McDonald’s burger tomorrow!” There is always fear in their eyes. They know exactly what’s going to happen"... Giving up meat or cutting it down is kinder all round as mostly everyone is beginning to learn these days!

Read more Read less

IQ2

12 March 2014 - 11:59 AM

On 2014-03-12 07:59:22, josh wrote:Dr. Barnard and Mr. Salatin provided the better arguments of the night, however I was not swayed from any party. We kill local plants when we…

On 2014-03-12 07:59:22, josh wrote:
Dr. Barnard and Mr. Salatin provided the better arguments of the night, however I was not swayed from any party. We kill local plants when we mass farm, therefore ecologically we are morally corrupt. We can not study all human life and diet, so any study could and should only pertain to the United States, and the ethnic diversity would still be an issue. To be truly Vegan, moral, and sustainable we would need to eat localized plant life only. True, maybe we should not all eat meat, but at the same time NO ONE has the perfect diet and we all are different.

Read more Read less

IQ2

7 March 2014 - 07:56 AM

On 2014-03-07 02:56:52, craig castanet wrote:
absolutely brilliant carnivores. beautiful, rational argument by darwin's top tier species. like it or not, we're at the top of the food chain. social justice? oh, you're in that crazy crowd. imagining injustices, usually, to justify stealing taxpayer property. it always boils down to justification for stealing private property, or blaming someone else for someone else's lot in life. i have respect for my ancestors- they ate meat and we evolved bigger brains and smaller guts.

Read more Read less

IQ2

5 March 2014 - 06:03 AM

On 2014-03-05 01:03:09, Meena wrote:I am encouraged by some of the comments, and I'm also saddened by others. "wow" said to "let the human animal live the way it evolved…

On 2014-03-05 01:03:09, Meena wrote:
I am encouraged by some of the comments, and I'm also saddened by others. "wow" said to "let the human animal live the way it evolved to"? This same person argued that superior intellect came from eating meat. The sentence he wrote did not even make sense or make a complete thought. Quite honestly, I came to this debate with an open mind. Clearly, the side for the motion was better prepared with science and evidence, and presented a much clearer and stronger case for the motion. There was little question in my mind that you could make a case that eating other animals was healthier for you, and no there is absolutely no doubt. Do a little research outside this debate, ask your doctor, read the resources available. All point to a meat free diet.

Read more Read less

IQ2

28 February 2014 - 11:08 AM

On 2014-02-28 06:08:04, Tim wrote:Very interesting debate. I came in believing that a vegan diet can and is a very healthy diet and I believe that one day I will…

On 2014-02-28 06:08:04, Tim wrote:
Very interesting debate. I came in believing that a vegan diet can and is a very healthy diet and I believe that one day I will switch to it. But I feel that the work that Joel Salatin was over looked by those arguing in favor of the proposition. I like the philosophy of his farm and approach, building his farm around an ecosystem and wish there were more studies around the overall impact of his ecosystem solution on the environment and human health. I was not overly persuaded by Gene, he kept correctly pointing out that most of our meat comes from factory farms but then compared that with local organic produce where most of our vegetables do not come from. Both sides made points but weren't always arguing the same thing.

Read more Read less

IQ2

26 February 2014 - 19:07 PM

On 2014-02-26 14:07:19, C.R.MacDonald wrote:
Great job from all participants, including the moderator. Great to see both sides represented well and personally, I'm pleased that the majority of the people sided with the Vegan argument. It's difficult to debate against the motion on the health, environmental, and ethical positions of Veganism. This was an enjoyable debate.

Read more Read less

IQ2

10 February 2014 - 04:53 AM

On 2014-02-09 23:53:54, Joseph Boyer wrote:Your show should be called Intelligence Run Amok. None of you would even be here if it weren't for Meat. What do you think got…

On 2014-02-09 23:53:54, Joseph Boyer wrote:
Your show should be called Intelligence Run Amok. None of you would even be here if it weren't for Meat. What do you think got the brain activity beyond foraging for berries? What a waste of man power. If there are any left.

Read more Read less

IQ2

4 February 2014 - 16:47 PM

On 2014-02-04 11:47:15, Carolyn Bjorkfelt wrote:
Gill Jacobs, what do you mean by "sentimentalizing" animals? All lives are precious. Of course lions can't be vegetarians. They are obligatory carnivores. Human beings are not. I wouldn't judge you or anyone for eating meat, but it IS possible to be healthy on a plant-based diet.

Read more Read less

IQ2

2 February 2014 - 03:07 AM

On 2014-02-01 22:07:36, Carol wrote:Heard today on WNYC, Feb 1, 2014. My experience is similar to other commentaries: many meat eaters are angry and dismissive about vegetarian diets rather than…

On 2014-02-01 22:07:36, Carol wrote:
Heard today on WNYC, Feb 1, 2014. My experience is similar to other commentaries: many meat eaters are angry and dismissive about vegetarian diets rather than the reverse. (And tend to make bazaar equivalencies such as the comment about killing microbes - just beyond the beyond.) Stating that growing plant food uses more resources pound for pound than growing meat - an outright lie, by any standards. For me, nothing is more offensive than specious reasoning and gross generalizations. Joel Salatin: 1) (All)Science is subjective. Wrong. Not every study manipulates the data to conform to the hypothesis. 2) Vegetarians have increased dental decay. Wrong. See NIH and Mayo Clinic. 3) Forward facing eyes indicate a species are carnivorous. Wrong. Current thinking is this type of eye placement developed in animals living in cluttered (leaves, bushes, etc.) environments. Consider predators without this eye structure: killer whales, orcas, crocodiles, mongooses, tree shrews, snakes… 4) Going philosophical? could “…trade dead bodies and thin people and heart attacks all night”… what? 5) Re Jesus and Mohammad eating meat – when speaking of religion, one should always keep the historic setting in mind. In Jesus’ and Mohammad’s time, women were chattel, slavery was the norm, the husband could impregnate another woman if his wife is infertile (the issue was never his infertility), and so on. 6) Not mentioned: herbivores have longer digestive tract for processing plant material. Carnivores have short digestive tracts. http://dujs.dartmouth.edu/fall-2010/turning-waste-into-food-cellulose-digestion

Read more Read less

IQ2

17 January 2014 - 06:22 AM

On 2014-01-17 01:22:08, Dee wrote:Well, After reading an article that moved me, I am embarking on a vegan diet. I am not a Buddhist, but came across this across article.…

On 2014-01-17 01:22:08, Dee wrote:
Well, After reading an article that moved me, I am embarking on a vegan diet. I am not a Buddhist, but came across this across article. All it needs is compassion. Imagine you stepping on a nail, now imagine what a lobster feels when you dunk it in boiling water. They scramble relentlessly trying to get out. Now, the following story here made me think. One day while cooking an eel in boiling water, this man noticed that this eel kept arching it's body out of the boiling water, but kept it's head and tail stuck to the bottom of the scorching pot. The eel eventually succumbed to death, and it's entire body just sank in. When the man cut the eel open, he found lots of eggs inside. Which tells us that animals are quite intelligent and aware of death and will do anything to save their offspring. Also, the death of my dogs devastated me. My love for them made me realize that all animals feel love and pain, so this also greatly influenced me into eating clean for the body and spirit. We,the human animal, can make choices. That is the difference from other predators. It is proven, that vegetarians live longer and a healthier life. It just takes a little time to research how satisfying and tasty vegetarian dishes can be. You will not miss meat and feel great.

Read more Read less

IQ2

6 January 2014 - 09:43 AM

On 2014-01-06 04:43:43, karlston wrote:When Joel Salatin mentioned Jesus and Mohammed, as wise and as sources of moral that should predict today's environmental questions, he COMPLETELY lost any credibility that…

On 2014-01-06 04:43:43, karlston wrote:
When Joel Salatin mentioned Jesus and Mohammed, as wise and as sources of moral that should predict today's environmental questions, he COMPLETELY lost any credibility that he had left in this debate.

Read more Read less

IQ2

6 January 2014 - 06:23 AM

On 2014-01-06 01:23:43, troy wrote:I wonder if the panelist FOR the motion (as well as those who voted for the motion) are philosophically consistent and think that an abortion is…

On 2014-01-06 01:23:43, troy wrote:
I wonder if the panelist FOR the motion (as well as those who voted for the motion) are philosophically consistent and think that an abortion is immoral on the same grounds used in this debate. The two issues may seem unrelated, but each time the team spoke about the moral reasons why killing animals is wrong, I kept feeling like I was hearing echo's of people who would be making a pro-life argument (central nervous system, can feel pain, there are other alternatives, etc)

Read more Read less

IQ2

6 January 2014 - 00:49 AM

On 2014-01-05 19:49:08, andrea wrote:1. if we stop artificially inseminating animals, there won't be so many. 2. i would ask the pro-eating animal side- would you kill the animal that…

On 2014-01-05 19:49:08, andrea wrote:
1. if we stop artificially inseminating animals, there won't be so many. 2. i would ask the pro-eating animal side- would you kill the animal that you were eating before each meal? literally, go outside in the morning, kill the pig and then make it into "sausage", the for lunch, go outside, kill a chicken for your chicken "salad", etc.? why pay someone else to do your dirty work? 3. the conditions and danger of the workers in the factory farms is atrocious. and most are immigrants. americans don't want to do that job. 4. i to would ask the pro-animal eaters, would you murder your cat, and then go get another one, and then murder them? or your dog if you have a dog instead? what's the difference, really? to call one a pet and the other dinner is a huge disconnect. intelligence is the ability to make connections.

Read more Read less

IQ2

3 January 2014 - 20:18 PM

On 2014-01-03 15:18:53, Dean Hulse wrote:I heard this debate only on January 2, 2014, via a local NPR affiliate. For a debate beginning with both sides opposing "factory farming," the…

On 2014-01-03 15:18:53, Dean Hulse wrote:
I heard this debate only on January 2, 2014, via a local NPR affiliate. For a debate beginning with both sides opposing "factory farming," the losing side missed an opportunity to make a key point against vegan agriculture. Namely this: If so-called factory farming is identical to "industrial agriculture," then how is vegan agriculture any different from industrial agriculture or today's version of commercial organic agriculture, both of which rely on food trucked hundreds or thousands of miles? The only true local agriculture--resilient agriculture--is that which regenerates its own fertility forever, and has the smallest possible carbon footprint. As Joel Salatin effectively argued (especially when mentioning the work of Allan Savory), grazing animals, their hoof action and their manure are key components of local foods systems. In short, animals are part of our ecosystem and must be factored in per the contributions they provide. The question, then, is how to do so in the most humane way possible. A animal sanctuary implies merely a kinder gentler zoo.

Read more Read less

IQ2

3 January 2014 - 05:40 AM

Robert R. Fiske states "As much as we like to 'think' we can 'think our way' into a new role in the ecosystem, I find it mainly audacious and a…

Robert R. Fiske states "As much as we like to 'think' we can 'think our way' into a new role in the ecosystem, I find it mainly audacious and a bit silly of us to try to believe that." As a species we not only thought our way into a new role in the ecosystem, we have achieved it already. We are the only species that has reproduced to an unsustainable level and in so doing we are destroying life on earth. What is audacious and a bit silly Robert, is to believe that we can continue on this path of destruction indefinitely. The United Nations has stated that a global shift towards a vegan diet is vital to save the world from hunger and the worst impacts of climate change. The enormous weight of suffering that animals endure in meat and dairy production is important and most people do indeed put a higher moral value on sentient beings than they do on vegetables, moulds and yeasts! Shame on you, Robert. http://www.almathefilm.com/

Read more Read less

IQ2

1 January 2014 - 01:24 AM

On 2013-12-31 20:24:58, Debbie Graham wrote:My rule of thumb-if I couldn't kill it myself, I shouldn't be eating it. I am not sure about the 'face' thing--where does that leave…

On 2013-12-31 20:24:58, Debbie Graham wrote:
My rule of thumb-if I couldn't kill it myself, I shouldn't be eating it. I am not sure about the 'face' thing--where does that leave oysters? Clearly if I were poor/living in a country with few resources, I would have no choice and to say it is wrong in those circumstances is silly. That said, there are Hindus/Jains in poor areas who somehow manage but clearly they are in a minority and perhaps it is less difficult to find non-root vegetables etc where they live. In any case there is no reason to go passing judgment. The goal should be try not to harm, try not to waste and try to be grateful--and not go around picking on everyone who makes other choices. I don't understand being vegetarian just for one's own health, I am not convinced it is always better.

Read more Read less

IQ2

30 December 2013 - 23:36 PM

On 2013-12-30 18:36:33, Mike Rucker wrote:I promised myself a decade ago I'd drop meat from my diet. Time to make good on that promise.

On 2013-12-30 18:36:33, Mike Rucker wrote:
I promised myself a decade ago I'd drop meat from my diet. Time to make good on that promise.

Read more Read less

IQ2

30 December 2013 - 00:48 AM

On 2013-12-29 19:48:11, Daniel wrote:
Not all animals are raised in deplorable conditions. There are farmers who raise animals with great care. I specialize in mother-hatched, mother-raised chicken. My chickens grow up enjoying life outdoors, spending from dawn to dusk foraging through gardens, pasture, brush and forest. Though many end up being eaten, if they lived in the wild, they would end up being devoured by a fox, coyote, hawk or eagle, and those predators cause more pain and suffering than I do when I butcher them. A hawk or eagle will eat them alive, ripping them apart until they succumb. My chickens grow to adulthood and their eggs and meat are so different than that from the large factory farms it's amazing. What few realize is that chickens are skillful hunters. They are adept at digging up bugs and earthworms, nabbing frogs, and even catching field mice and the occasional small bird. Large, factory farms are horrific in the way they treat animals. But there are small operations which provide a wonderful life for animals. amanandhishoe.com

Read more Read less

IQ2

28 December 2013 - 01:44 AM

On 2013-12-27 20:44:07, Permie wrote:The debate is very much more complex than 'one way is right, the other wrong'. There is no one way to live when our human population…

On 2013-12-27 20:44:07, Permie wrote:
The debate is very much more complex than 'one way is right, the other wrong'. There is no one way to live when our human population numbers are over 7b. Have vegans considered how many animals suffer to produce their vegan food? Peter Singer says that more actual numbers of sentient animals are killed to produce grain by land clearing and use of pesticides than cattle raised on rangelands. Some lands are only able to support hardy animals like goats. How else should people who live in arid regions survive? They have to eat animals or they will starve. In organic farming, how should vegies be fertilised if not via animal manures? Through the application of fossil fuel derived fertlisers perhaps? You need animals in the system to recycle nutrients properly. Small scale organics are part of the solution for local food economies but it depends on the level of fertility you have for growing.We need a diversity of ways to eat as ethically as possible while recognising that for some people, meat is an essential part of their diet. It's industrial farming where the real problem lies.

Read more Read less

IQ2

24 December 2013 - 07:49 AM

On 2013-12-24 02:49:11, Frank wrote:First, I am not a vegan or vegetarian. On the other hand, I have dramatically lowered my consumption of animal foods over the course of the…

On 2013-12-24 02:49:11, Frank wrote:
First, I am not a vegan or vegetarian. On the other hand, I have dramatically lowered my consumption of animal foods over the course of the last few years after spending considerable time researching the subject, as the science points strongly towards this being a positive step in terms of health. Also, there is no doubt that vegetarian or vegan diets are healthy alternatives to the standard American diet - there are just too many examples of people who eat this way and enjoy excellent health. Personally, I think that the middle ground, similar to what Mark Bittman outlines in his "VB6: Eat Vegan Before 6:00 to Lose Weight and Restore Your Health . . . for Good" offers the best of both worlds. As for the debate, Barnard and Salatin were the most convincing, both real experts in their respective fields, and given that they sat on opposite sides of the fence, I would have to call the affair a draw. The moderator was decent but displayed a minor but obvious bias towards the eat no faces position. Just my 2 cents worth...

Read more Read less

IQ2

19 December 2013 - 09:13 AM

On 2013-12-19 04:13:19, Rudy wrote:I am vegan, but as matter of principle, I would not vote for a winner in this debate. The format of this debate, as with many…

On 2013-12-19 04:13:19, Rudy wrote:
I am vegan, but as matter of principle, I would not vote for a winner in this debate. The format of this debate, as with many political debates, arouses the emotions, polarizes the public, but does not really educate. or offer any solutions. By "voting" one way or the other in this sort of debate, I would be voting for endless war. I will therefore cast my vote outside box. I vote that these four gentleman come together in a different setting - one that allows them to recognize their common ground (yes it does exist), as they intelligently present their case, discuss their differences, and really listen to each other, so they can come up with unified plan for educating the public on ways that we can work together to create a cleaner and more sustainable food supply, and a more responsible and humane relationship with the the life around us.

Read more Read less

IQ2

19 December 2013 - 07:02 AM

On 2013-12-19 02:02:37, Robert R Fiske wrote:Great to hear this unending debate keep jogging down the road! Don't know if it's making any real progress towards one side or the…

On 2013-12-19 02:02:37, Robert R Fiske wrote:
Great to hear this unending debate keep jogging down the road! Don't know if it's making any real progress towards one side or the other, but I DO think we are seeing more people in the US in particular give more attention to the quality of their food and their health. But the Meat or No Meat argument is still retreading the same battle-lines it has for centuries, and misses too many important emphases to make any new headway. Personally, I think the setup of the debate is flawed to start with. We barely heard them get serious back and forth about the quality and sourcing of the foods we eat, and this is simply central to our eating dilemma today, The industrial processes and our consumptive and 'sweet-tooth' culture have us eating in very unhealthy patterns with excessive volumes of Sugar, Fat (Animal and Veg), Starch (more sugar), and ungodly additives, preservatives, colorings, perfumes, various substitutes, etc.. My family (wife, daughter and me) has been eating with inspirations from the Weston Price diet for 6-8 years, which does include numerous animal products, but also a greater proportion of veg and grain, and then an array of fermented, soaked and pickled foods, looking towards many traditional foods that have been associated with healthy and robust cultures that can still be seen today. We have been drinking Raw Milk, and my daughter, as far as we can remember, has never missed a day of school from illness. Over this time frame, I will fry my eggs a few times a week in bacon fat, or butter, or sausage grease, albeit these are all local and known producers of these foods, all organic or better.. and I use considerable amounts of butter and whole milk products around my diet.. along with all sorts of healthy, fresh, local veg. sources. I have no indications of diabetes, cardiovascular issues or any of the other chronic conditions contributors here seem to expect with such diets. But I really think it's important to note that for those on the Meat side of the debate, there was no doubt that they are expecting a healthy person to be eating the right balance of veg in their diets, while the Veg camp is taking the absolute view of eliminating this part of the diet entirely. I find that I agree with Salatin in this, and find such thinking to be willfully blinding onesself to the kind of species we are, and how we have historically fit into the mix in the natural world. As much as we like to 'think' we can 'think our way' into a new role in the ecosystem, I find it mainly audacious and a bit silly of us to try to believe that. We are scavengers, we are opportunistic omnivores, with intelligence arguably (Pollan) derived for that very purpose, that of identifying and remembering viable food sources, much like the other intelligent omnivores, like the Bear, the Raven, the Raccoon and the Rat. Putting our diet into an absolutist 'either/or' state like this is denying something central about what we are. Still, I don't feel any need to tell Veggies and Vegans that they 'should' be eating animal products. A lot of people seem to make V-ism work well for them.. but I also insist that 'Every we eat was alive'.. and I don't put a higher moral or compassionate value on animal foods over veg,, or molds and yeasts, and so on. Peace. RRF

Read more Read less

IQ2

19 December 2013 - 03:01 AM

On 2013-12-18 22:01:39, Erik wrote:Gene Baur's arguements seem to be mostly emotional based and not based in fact. He comes across as close-minded and irrational. He's not even willing to…

On 2013-12-18 22:01:39, Erik wrote:
Gene Baur's arguements seem to be mostly emotional based and not based in fact. He comes across as close-minded and irrational. He's not even willing to acknowledge the life force of animals he can't see just because it would negate the basis of his position. He is the portrait of the self righteous animal rights activist. Also, Baur and Barnard, keep portraying meat eating through the lens of the factory farm while referring to vegetables farming largely in the organic context. The same is true for vegetables as it is for meat. when you look at how conventional produce is grown it looks just as bad as feed lots.

Read more Read less

IQ2

19 December 2013 - 00:05 AM

On 2013-12-18 19:05:30, Wow wrote:Can't believe all the logical fallacies, anecdotes and emotional appeals used by the pro-vegan side. Makes me shake my head that they were voted to have…

On 2013-12-18 19:05:30, Wow wrote:
Can't believe all the logical fallacies, anecdotes and emotional appeals used by the pro-vegan side. Makes me shake my head that they were voted to have "won" this debate. Guess I should be glad I'm alive in a day when I can still enjoy a nice steak without being worried about Big Brother throwing me in Room 101. Humans will go from apex predators to cattle themselves, suppose it's already happening. We are omnivores. We adapted our superior intellect because we needed brains to hunt animals. We would not have the mental capacity to stand around debating the morality of eating animals if we hadn't started eating animals. We probably wouldn't even be here, today. I'm not forcing you to eat meat. Don't force me not to. You want to live and let live, yes? Then let the human animal live the way it evolved to.

Read more Read less

IQ2

18 December 2013 - 23:56 PM

On 2013-12-18 18:56:45, Beverly Slade wrote:Don't eat anything with a face: Vote YES!

On 2013-12-18 18:56:45, Beverly Slade wrote:
Don't eat anything with a face: Vote YES!

Read more Read less

IQ2

17 December 2013 - 20:04 PM

On 2013-12-17 15:04:27, Ross wrote:Joel is an excellent speaker! I'd hire him for a farm comedy show. Kidding, really loved this debate, I don't think there is any resolution to…

On 2013-12-17 15:04:27, Ross wrote:
Joel is an excellent speaker! I'd hire him for a farm comedy show. Kidding, really loved this debate, I don't think there is any resolution to 'prove to me that Vegan/Veges get enough nutrients' and lets just shut down factory farms and returning to the simple life of caretaking for our own animals. I'm a Vegan, however don't have a problem with animals dying as long as it is humane.

Read more Read less

IQ2

17 December 2013 - 11:22 AM

On 2013-12-17 06:22:25, calpsu wrote:It seems to me that one day our society will evolve and look back at the way we so cruelly inflicted pain, torment and suffering on…

On 2013-12-17 06:22:25, calpsu wrote:
It seems to me that one day our society will evolve and look back at the way we so cruelly inflicted pain, torment and suffering on these animals, who did nothing to deserve this but be born. We live in a society of double standards. Why would eat a pig but not a dog? Pigs are just as socially intelligent as dogs but look at how they are butchered by humans. They have so much capacity to love. One day, I am optimistic we will look back and realize how foolish we were. This is like slavery in the new era where we murder our best friends - for what? Just for something that tastes good? Well, really it does not taste good knowing how much suffering happened to get that food on your plate.

Read more Read less

IQ2

17 December 2013 - 03:23 AM

On 2013-12-16 22:23:24, Daved Wachsman wrote:
VEGCON means "VEGetarian CONscious" VEGCONISM is "The Conscious Choice By Changing Hearts To Changed Minds" Vegconism is the practice of REDUCING animal pain,suffering and death by consciously choicing products that do not contain animal products or by products by reading the labels and eliminating all flesh foods, dairy and eggs. However; there are hundreds of products that contain animal products and by-products to unsuspecting consumers that are not labelled on the ingredients. Commercial and Industrial products we use in the home or office, food products that contain animal by products that are impossible for a consumer who calls themself a so-called vegan cannot excape. That is the difference between VEGCONISM and veganism. Vegconism REDUCES animal pain,suffering and death knowing full well that it is impossible to do so 100% as oppossed to veganism which think they can but impossible to do so in the real world. Therefore, there is no such person as a vegan and there is no such practice as veganism but VEGCONISM there is real true substinent value where as veganism coined by don watson of England back in 1944 which watson used the first 3 and last 2 letters of vegetarian, so what? but VEGCON and VEGCONISM and the above quote authored by Daved Wachsman are words that have substinent value and offers a more common approach to a vegetarian way of life.

Read more Read less

IQ2

17 December 2013 - 01:25 AM

On 2013-12-16 20:25:56, Lydia Stone wrote:It is never a surprise to me when those defending killing animals for food do so in an aggressive and mean spirited manner. That farmer…

On 2013-12-16 20:25:56, Lydia Stone wrote:
It is never a surprise to me when those defending killing animals for food do so in an aggressive and mean spirited manner. That farmer was sarcastic and rude in his arguments. Of course, he kills animals for a living. Even the other guy had to be warned not to engage in personal attacks. His assertion that veganism leads to more incidences of mental health issues than with meat eaters was the most ridiculous argument I have ever heard. Gene and Neal were calm and respectful and used facts to support their arguments. The audience results clearly proved that well reasoned arguments delivered by intelligent and reasonable people will win the day.

Read more Read less

IQ2

17 December 2013 - 01:07 AM

On 2013-12-16 20:07:08, D. M. K wrote:Personally, I think that the vegan/vegetarian diet is a much better one because of several reasons: ;Population: -There are too many people on this…

On 2013-12-16 20:07:08, D. M. K wrote:
Personally, I think that the vegan/vegetarian diet is a much better one because of several reasons: ;Population: -There are too many people on this planet -A huge proportion of these people eat animals -These animals consume 70% of crops grown for their death -We live in a world where most of our food is processed (did you know about meat being sterilized with ammonia?) -We could cut down on meat production ->so that we can decrease world hunger which everyone complains about -There are people that generally eat too much and others too little -We are all suited to different diets because we have evolved in such a way that we're all unique ;Health: -Meats take longer to digest because they contain long strains of proteins, which the body needs to use extra energy to break down into amino acids ->These are not overly healthy -Meat is believed to be the cause of many diseases because >we process it >it is the carcass of an animal which may have mutated >it changes the DNA, which is likely to trigger cancer :Moral Issues: (I didn't know what to call this title) -Animals have emotions -They are intelligent beings (yes, even chickens) -They do not want to die -The fact that they're cooped together in worse conditions than bottles of wine goes to show that we do not care for their wellbeing -Putting them in organic conditions doesn't make it better ->you're still killing them in order to satisfy your gluttony -Many human beings, even those with a greater demand for energy receive much more beneficial results from the no meat diet. -I am one of those people Have a good day

Read more Read less

IQ2

16 December 2013 - 23:53 PM

On 2013-12-16 18:53:54, patti wrote:For people that are meat eaters, go to a dietician and they will educate you on what to eat to get proper nutrition. You have to…

On 2013-12-16 18:53:54, patti wrote:
For people that are meat eaters, go to a dietician and they will educate you on what to eat to get proper nutrition. You have to educate yourselves. If you want to stay obese, take meds, have diabetes, gerd, acid reflux, than continue to eat meat and dairy. It was basically killing my body.....I felt like i was dying, until I found a doctor who actually cared and educated me on food. Within a week I felt better and had more energy.....It is all in your diet, If you don't believe it, then you will get sicker day by day. Vegans don't have high blood pressure, chlosterol and all the other problems that meat and dairy eaters do. That is a FACT....your life is what you make of it. And to eat tortured, abused, downed animals, you are putting that in your body. It is disgusting and morally wrong. Thank you Gene Bauer and Neil Bernard for all your expertise and knowledge, and all you do for our wonderful animals. You rock.

Read more Read less

IQ2

16 December 2013 - 00:39 AM

On 2013-12-15 19:39:52, Kravu Pārvadājumi wrote:I don't eat meat for two years now and I'm feeling great.

On 2013-12-15 19:39:52, Kravu Pārvadājumi wrote:
I don't eat meat for two years now and I'm feeling great.

Read more Read less

IQ2

12 December 2013 - 19:47 PM

On 2013-12-12 14:47:45, Michael Walkup wrote:I think you have to look at human evolution to answer this question. Ruminants have four stomachs so they can digest plants by breaking down…

On 2013-12-12 14:47:45, Michael Walkup wrote:
I think you have to look at human evolution to answer this question. Ruminants have four stomachs so they can digest plants by breaking down the cellulose in the cell walls. They also have specially designed teeth for really chewing the plants. Carnivores have much smaller digestive systems and their teeth are not designed for extensive chewing. Chimpanzees, with whom we share about 95% of our DNA, eat primarily fruits which have less cellulose in the cell walls as they are designed to break down and release the seeds contained within. Chimps and other apes have about a 30% larger digestive system than humans adjusted for size. Humans evolved as apes that were forced out of the jungle into the savanna. There is not a lot of fruit in that environment so they had to eat much more meat. Probably they scavenged dead animals. Their free upper extremities would have allowed them to break open skulls for the brains and break large bones for the marrow, both of which are the most nutritious parts of the carcass and cannot be accessed by other predators and scavengers. Therefore, early humans could have just waited around for all of the dangerous predators to finish eating and then go in and get the leftovers. It is estimated that meat accounted for the majority of the diet of early humans, and that period of our evolution extended for about 6 million years. The ten thousand year history of agriculture was not enough time for any significant changes to occur in our digestive systems, although Europeans have developed the ability to use milk as adults and most people can digest grain products. Nevertheless, gluten sensitivity is on the rise which may reflect more awareness of the inability of some to process grains and hence more diagnosis of that condition. Overweight people and those with genetically high cholesterol counts could probably benefit from vegan diets as they will fill themselves up with plants that mostly pass through their systems undigested. However, others are probably better off with a balanced diet of meat and other foods, especially if the animals are raised on pasture. At my farm we raise heritage chickens and turkey which are fed certified organic feed. It is a lot more expensive to raise them but you get what you pay for.

Read more Read less

IQ2

12 December 2013 - 18:44 PM

On 2013-12-12 13:44:48, Nancy Distler wrote:For not eating anything with eyes or a mother. The way animals are farmed in this day and age is so very cruel. They suffer…

On 2013-12-12 13:44:48, Nancy Distler wrote:
For not eating anything with eyes or a mother. The way animals are farmed in this day and age is so very cruel. They suffer a life of misery, filth, and a cruel slaughter. There are just too many people for us to all eat meat. Everything is factory farmed and not healthy because the world is trying to feed to many people. Change is needed and if things don't change then I fear it will be the end for us and our planet. It is a blood=bath out there for animals. Way too much cruelty. Humans have become non human and lost their compassion. With out compassion and accepting so much cruelty, it only stands to reason we are doomed.

Read more Read less

IQ2

12 December 2013 - 04:59 AM

On 2013-12-11 23:59:08, Eric Winter wrote:They had a similar argument in 1860 -- should black people be held as slaves, or should they not? Nowadays we don't care what the…

On 2013-12-11 23:59:08, Eric Winter wrote:
They had a similar argument in 1860 -- should black people be held as slaves, or should they not? Nowadays we don't care what the pro-slavery idiots said -- they were idiots. There is no pro-slavery argument. Today many people are also aware that there is also no counter-argument to veganism. (Watch "The Greatest Speech You Will Ever Hear" by Gary Yourovsky). If you currently feel there IS a counter-argument to veganism, you won't admit this in 20 years time. (Just like today you won't admit that 20 years ago you thought all gays were perverts.)

Read more Read less

IQ2

11 December 2013 - 21:47 PM

On 2013-12-11 16:47:54, Eng wrote:The arrogance of the moral position on "not eating anything with a face" is staggering. You would arbitrarily place a higher value on life which has…

On 2013-12-11 16:47:54, Eng wrote:
The arrogance of the moral position on "not eating anything with a face" is staggering. You would arbitrarily place a higher value on life which has a form and experience more similar to yours and place a lower value on life which has a form and experience different from yours. You would say one form of life is ok to kill and eat without guilt and another is not. You would deny your equal position in the ecology of the planet to that of a bean sprout or a worm because you have arbitrarily defined your own central nervous system and sensory organs and cognition as special or important enough to place you outside of it. You imagine special responsibilities for yourself because of this imagined special position, you choose forms of abstinence from your evolved place in the ecosystem as a form sacrament for your moral philosophy. This moral philosophy is simply another presentation of the spirituality of self-worship. Maybe this is what you need to do to feel personally fulfilled. Then do it and be happy. But, just like other evangelicals engaged in self-worship disguised as moral philosophy, you feel compelled to make others like you to validate your feelings. Just like young earth creationists and intelligent designers, you deny evolution, you deny that humankind is mundane, you cherry pick studies and anecdotes, you use the language of science to describe philosophy, you attempt to obfuscate the broad variation in lifestyles, genetic makeup, and complexity of the real world and environment, all to persuade others to be more like you.

Read more Read less

IQ2

11 December 2013 - 20:10 PM

On 2013-12-11 15:10:53, Trae Palmer wrote:Hey, I think that's Victoria Moran I see in the background at 01:08:15...I love her podcast !

On 2013-12-11 15:10:53, Trae Palmer wrote:
Hey, I think that's Victoria Moran I see in the background at 01:08:15...I love her podcast !

Read more Read less

IQ2

10 December 2013 - 22:38 PM

On 2013-12-10 17:38:26, Damian Stoy wrote:I've been vegan for 9 years. I run 100 miles races competitively and have perfect health. Not a single issue, no injuries, no headaches, no…

On 2013-12-10 17:38:26, Damian Stoy wrote:
I've been vegan for 9 years. I run 100 miles races competitively and have perfect health. Not a single issue, no injuries, no headaches, no digestive issues. 7 months ago I went to a diet of JUST fruits and veggies and I am THRIVING. The key is eating lots.

Read more Read less

IQ2

10 December 2013 - 14:36 PM

On 2013-12-10 09:36:55, Natalie wrote:For those of you who say a vegan diet is unhealthy: Any diet (vegan or non-vegan) can by unhealthy if not done properly. Just because someone…

On 2013-12-10 09:36:55, Natalie wrote:
For those of you who say a vegan diet is unhealthy: Any diet (vegan or non-vegan) can by unhealthy if not done properly. Just because someone is vegan does not mean they are eating only processed sugar, corn, soy, etc. Many vegans are whole food vegans, meaning they only eat fresh fruit and vegetables and whole grains (not the processed stuff). If you eat a balanced diet of plant-based food, you can obtain all the nutrients you need, including vitamin B12. Even the ADA has stated that a vegan diet, if done properly, can be perfectly healthy.

Read more Read less

IQ2

10 December 2013 - 14:22 PM

On 2013-12-10 09:22:49, Natalie wrote:To Justin Credible: You wrote the following: "Animals are not like us. They have no history books, no photographs, no knowledge of sorrow or regret. Don't…

On 2013-12-10 09:22:49, Natalie wrote:
To Justin Credible: You wrote the following: "Animals are not like us. They have no history books, no photographs, no knowledge of sorrow or regret. Don't get me wrong, I like animals and all. I just don't see the point in crying over dead animals who never even feared death to begin with" You may have never studied animal behavior and evolution in college. I did. I earned my degree in evolutionary biology. I have also spent years working as a veterinary nurse and have attended multiple seminars on animal cognitive behavior and emotions. You are flat out wrong when you say that animals have "no knowledge of sorrow or regret." Just ask a veterinarian (who has a doctorate degree) and they will tell you that animals not only experience sorrow and regret, but they also experience grief, gratitude, and both physical and emotional pain. As Charles Darwin said: "There is no fundamental difference between man and the higher animals in their mental faculties... The lower animals, like man, manifestly feel pleasure and pain, happiness, and misery." "The idea of difference is a human conception for man's own advantage..." -- Sri Aurobindo, We used to justify slavery by saying that blacks were inferior to whites (ie: conception for our own advantage). We justified this cruelty because it "benefited" our economy. Well, raising animals in crowded pens and boiling them alive (pigs and chickens) without proper stunning is cruel and it does NOT benefit our health. There are plenty of healthy vegans out there. I am an ultra runner and know plenty of other ultra runners who have been vegan for years and we run 31 mile plus races in the mountains. We thrive on this diet. Others may "thrive" on a factory farm animal-based diet, but their diet directly contributes to suffering, and it is not ecologically sustainable in a planet with over 7 billion people. Don't presume to know what animals are thinking or feeling. After all, you are an animal yourself.

Read more Read less

IQ2

10 December 2013 - 12:47 PM

On 2013-12-10 07:47:48, Joseph Martinez wrote:
Without going into Ecological and ethical issues and just approaching this issue from a scientific perspective, as a nutritional scientist (I am an assistant professor, teaching Clinical Nutrition and nutritional biochemistry) I find that the claims made that a vegan diet is better than an omnivorous one and that meat is the cause of various diseases are not supported by the literature. And it really doesn't matter the speaking skills and knowledge of the people in the debate. What really matters is what good research shows. As so I would like to bring some points to the discussion: 1) The fact that a vegan/vegetarian diet improves various health markers in the short term doesn't say it is a better diet than a well balanced omnivorous diet, because when you do a trial where diet A is a vegan/vegetarian diet and diet B is the typical SAD (which is a nutritional nightmare) or even the recommended AHA one (which has been shown to be scientific incorrect by multiple lines of evidence), the only thing you can say is that quitting a SAD diet is beneficial. But this happens with many diets and not just vegetarian ones: low carb, low glycemic index diets, Zone diet, Med diets, etc. for instance, there are already 2 trials with a Paleo diet (which includes meat) showing good results in diabetic patients when compared to a Mediterranean or prudent diet. And there are many high protein, low carb diets (that obviously include meat) showing these diets improve various metabolic markers when compared to a prudent diet. To really now if a vegetarian/vegan diet is better than all omnivorous diets you have to put it to test and very few studies have actually done that. Bottom line: almost any diet that puts away from the SAD will improve your health (at least short term); 2) when someone goes on a vegetarian/vegan diet not only changes the diet but also the lifestyle, which makes it very hard if not impossible to draw conclusions about the single variable that explains their health status. This is supposedly one of the reasons why red meat has been associated with some diseases in epidemiological studies and whole grains inversely associated. People who eat more red meat also smoke, are physically inactive and eat fewer fruits and veggies. On the other hand those who eat whole grains do the opposite. Is it the red meat then? Is it the whole grains? Or is it the whole lifestyle? 3) various prospective and retrospective studies observe that vegetarians do not live longer than omnivorous and many omnivorous follow a SAD, so how can this be? This is enough to make me skeptical. 4) it is very well known that a vegan or even vegetarian diet can lead to various nutritional deficiencies/insufficiencies not because plant foods do not contain it, but because their bioavailability in plant foods (especially whole grains) is low: B12, B6, DHA, Iron, Zinc, Cysteine, Taurine. A diet composed of meat, fish, eggs, dairy, fruits, vegetables, tubers, nuts is much more nutrient dense and the bioavailability of most nutrients in these foods is better than in whole grains (which form the basis of many vegan/vegetarian diets) 5) many researchers have analyzed the health status and dietary habits of various populations around the world and have found that non western pre-agriculture populations are virtually free of modern diseases and that none is totally vegetarian - there's always some animal foods in their diets. Even Okinawa that has a fair amount of very old healthy people includes some animal food in their traditional diet. Many of these researchers have implicated grains, refined sugars, refined vegetable oils, processed foods, meat from feedlot obese animals as well as lifestyle as possible explanations: http://www.dovepress.com/the-western-diet-and-lifestyle-and-diseases-of-civilization-peer-reviewed-article-RRCC-MVP http://www.direct-ms.org/pdf/EvolutionPaleolithic/Cereal%20Sword.pdf http://www.paleodiet.com/lindeberg/ http://www.biomedcentral.com/1472-6823/5/10 http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/81/2/341.full 6) to better understand the poor quality of the research and arguments used to support a vegan diet here's a link to a debate: http://www.catalystathletics.com/articles/downloads/proteinDebate.pdf

Read more Read less

IQ2

9 December 2013 - 23:20 PM

On 2013-12-09 18:20:23, Nathan wrote:Whether or not you agree with the FOR side, you have to admit they did a much better job than the AGAINST. The FOR guys were…

On 2013-12-09 18:20:23, Nathan wrote:
Whether or not you agree with the FOR side, you have to admit they did a much better job than the AGAINST. The FOR guys were well armed with knowledge, data, and facts, and delivered them with confidence. The AGAINST guys seemed hesitant, didn't have any facts to back up their arguments, and resorted to ad hominem attacks. FOR wins!

Read more Read less

IQ2

9 December 2013 - 03:36 AM

On 2013-12-08 22:36:45, Phil Lapp wrote:My father was born Amish and we grew up Mennonite in Lancaster County, PA, eating meat and potatoes literally every day. My grandfather died of…

On 2013-12-08 22:36:45, Phil Lapp wrote:
My father was born Amish and we grew up Mennonite in Lancaster County, PA, eating meat and potatoes literally every day. My grandfather died of a heart attack at age 40. At age 33 I went in for a routine physical and found my cholesterol was hovering around 300, even on statins. With the council of my doctor, I started eliminating all red meat (still eating fish occasionally) from my diet and over the course of a year my cholesterol dropped 100 points (without medication), and I lost 30 lbs. The elimination of red meat, and the introduction of nuts, beans, and fruit was literally the only dietary change I made. Just began to feel great. Today I'm a competitive long-distance runner fueled exclusively on plants and am in the best shape of my life. Everyone has a personal story. As runners, we need to focus on "soft" foods that our bodies can digest efficiently. Red meat is obviously not one of those foods. But personal stories aren't enough. I think there are two primary questions missing from this debate, outside of ethics and sustainability, and purely from a nutritional standpoint. 1 - everyone focuses on the positives of what's in red meat, protein obviously is one. But if you consider the total picture (such as excessive l-carnitine and iron for examples) what impact does the total ingredient deck have on health? And 2 - fairly simple, what impact does eating red meat have on digestive health? Exploring these questions openly and honestly leads away from the polarization topic of meat, and more to it's effects, which trickle out much further than taking a bite. Caveat - my wife and I co-founded a meat alternative called "neat". And while we're not taking a combative position on this topic as a brand, we try to simply equip people with the information to make a informed decision - producing an alternative, and letting people decide for themselves where it fits in their diet.

Read more Read less

IQ2

8 December 2013 - 21:10 PM

On 2013-12-08 16:10:12, Griffin wrote:Assuming we don't buy into the health concerns of "eating anything with a face", or that we don't nutritional have to include animals in our diet,…

On 2013-12-08 16:10:12, Griffin wrote:
Assuming we don't buy into the health concerns of "eating anything with a face", or that we don't nutritional have to include animals in our diet, then why do we shun eating horses & dogs that are commonly consumed in other parts of the world?

Read more Read less

IQ2

8 December 2013 - 03:09 AM

On 2013-12-07 22:09:56, Cyd wrote:I was vegetarian for a very long time, close to vegan except for fish; I ate a lot of soy as well. I slowly added poultry…

On 2013-12-07 22:09:56, Cyd wrote:
I was vegetarian for a very long time, close to vegan except for fish; I ate a lot of soy as well. I slowly added poultry back into my diet, and then two years ago I was diagnosed with Hashimotos Thyroiditis. I also became Pre- Diabetic. To my dismay as I began to do finger sticks regularly I found that all carbs including fruit raised my blood glucose a lot. Now I am working hard to keep my carb intake very low. I eat a fairly high fat diet, good fats, moderate protein and low carb. It is the only thing that works...obviously to keep my BG low. As it is I still wake up with a BG level of around 100mg. I don't believe that vegetarianism can work for me and I am dubious about any diet that cannot provide all the nutrients, i.e, B12. I don't believe that we are meant to take supplements. That has always been something that has stayed in my mind since I started vegetarianism about over 40 years ago. So I venture into this new world of the Paleo diet with most of my colleagues and friends thinking I'm crazy. I look forward to more debates on vegetarianism, veganism vs the Paleo diet. Thanks. Cyd

Read more Read less

IQ2

7 December 2013 - 22:30 PM

On 2013-12-07 17:30:32, JC wrote:The percentage of vegans is up higher than posted here. 7% now claim to be vegan or roughly 22 million. This is a social justice movement…

On 2013-12-07 17:30:32, JC wrote:
The percentage of vegans is up higher than posted here. 7% now claim to be vegan or roughly 22 million. This is a social justice movement that is getting stronger and stronger. People opposed will some day look like racists do now! http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/main/2013/02/americans-pick-ronald-mcdonald-over-burger-king-for-president.html Here's a video to help everyone understand why so many people are making this life affirming choice: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKr4HZ7ukSE Join the revolution! 21-Day Vegan Kickstart http://www.pcrm.org/health/diets/kickstart/kickstart-programs

Read more Read less

IQ2

7 December 2013 - 20:51 PM

On 2013-12-07 15:51:32, Seth Pajak wrote:It takes a lot more energy to make animal protein for food than it does to make plant protein for food. The reason is you…

On 2013-12-07 15:51:32, Seth Pajak wrote:
It takes a lot more energy to make animal protein for food than it does to make plant protein for food. The reason is you have to feed animals plants in order for them to build muscle. A large portion of the food we grow in this country goes to feed animals instead of humans. Most of the plants we feed animals does not turn to animal protein, it turns to manure, a lot which is unprocessed and pollutes rivers. It would be more efficient and cleaner if humans lived on a plant based diet. A plant based diet is no less healthy than a diet with meat in it. Look at athletes like Brendan Brazier, Venus Williams, Aaron Simpson, Jake Shields, Rich Roll, Laura Kline and several others.

Read more Read less

IQ2

7 December 2013 - 09:20 AM

On 2013-12-07 04:20:27, Joel wrote:
The Pro-meat arguments were stronger in every way. The No-meat arguments were irrelevant and unsupported by actual science. The only real argument they have is that you animals have to die. Which i am okay with because i believe its more ecological, sustainable and I feel healthier. Factory farms, non pasture raised animals are another story. Eat meat just make sure its coming from a sustainable healthy source.

Read more Read less

IQ2

7 December 2013 - 04:54 AM

On 2013-12-06 23:54:44, Joachim wrote:Who cares what we ate once upon a time? Have we really not learned - after all our history with racial, gender and sexuality segregration and…

On 2013-12-06 23:54:44, Joachim wrote:
Who cares what we ate once upon a time? Have we really not learned - after all our history with racial, gender and sexuality segregration and discrimination - that we don't have to be slaves of our past beliefs and habits? Now, if our past eating habits signified any necessity in eating animals, then the non-vegans would have had a point. But there is none. We can even disregard Neal Barnard's strong scientific case that eating meat is actually dangerous for us. The key point is that we don't need to cause misery for animals. So why do it? So we live in an age, where it definitely is not necessary to eat animals. We also live in an age, where scientist has erased any doubt that animals are sentient beings with consciousness, feelings and preferences - all animals; pigs and chickens just as much as dogs and cats. Most people recognize that animals have emotional lives, can be deeply miserable when treated like commodities, and very happy when they are treated with kindness and allowed to follow their natural urges. Most people care about animals. Not as much as they care about humans, and I am not arguing they should. The key point for me is not animal equality, power or rights. The key point is that with our superior intelligence and power comes responsibilites. When we have the choice in how to treat the animals - when we don't need to eat meat - we should choose kindness and compassion, rather than violence. We should treat them as we would have wanted to be treated, if someone had the power over us. It is actually kind of obvious.

Read more Read less

IQ2

7 December 2013 - 02:38 AM

How in the world can any thinking person consider that the worlds poor people can even feed the farmed animals when they require so much grain, or grasses to be…

How in the world can any thinking person consider that the worlds poor people can even feed the farmed animals when they require so much grain, or grasses to be healthy? We feed a WHOPPING 70% of grains grown today to farmed animals. THAT is obscene and disrespectful to poor children starving while fattening animals takes the lions share of crops. I hope those who voted against the motion have a good look the films, Earthlings, and , The Ghost in Our Machine, as well as visit the slaughterhouse where all those "happy" animals end up , another form of a concentration camp that turns feeling beings into products. HOW SELFISH! For me, it doesn't even matter whether people feel better on a vegan diet, and those that do not are DETOXING from years of poisons leaving their cells. What matters is that finally, after ten thousand years of brutal domination of sentient beings, we leave them in PEACE and stop abducting their young, and body parts . The violence we do to them, we do to US!

Read more Read less

IQ2

7 December 2013 - 02:13 AM

On 2013-12-06 21:13:31, Justin Credible wrote:
Dead Doctors Don't Lie --->http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8nqPEA3rGs Dead Athletes Don't Lie---> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCQei3I4hIw I have a severe problem with this debate. The narrator seemed quite bias to the vegan side. We have hundreds and hundreds of different disease that are directly linked to a number of different things not discussed in here. Was the question was about eating things with a face because of health reasons or because you don't want to hurt their feelings. You can’t make your argument for the health aspect with the justification of not eating meat because 1. it has a face. and 2. you’re going to hurt their feelings. So basically the vegans answer to the question is not a matter of health or because it has a face. There aspect is to justify their delusional rational of personifying the animals. I am not saying that there answer is wrong. It may very well be true to them, in there reality, from their perspective, but it is an answer to an entirely different question. The question the vegans are answering is not about health, it’s about feelings. Animals are not like us. They have no history books, no photographs, no knowledge of sorrow or regret. Don't get me wrong, I like animals and all. I just don't see the point in crying over dead animals who never even feared death to begin with. Going back to the health aspect there are so many issues with health that are linked to nutritional deficiencies that you can only get enough nutrients from with meat. (IE. vitamin A, cholesterol, ext.) This debate seemed more like an attack on those who eat animals rather than trying to justify there reason for vegan-ism. I believe because subconsciously the vegans in this debate fundamentally know they are wrong and that is why that cannot come up with a rational logical answer to being vegan. If it is a spiritual reason, or a something along those lines, that’s one thing, it’s a personal choice. But based on our physiological nature eating a purely vegan diet expecting to live a longer and better quality of life physically is fundamentally wrong.

Read more Read less

IQ2

7 December 2013 - 00:43 AM

On 2013-12-06 19:43:06, John Beemer wrote:Joel Salatin states that "The China Study has been debunked by so many experts". Is he talking about the 23 year old elementary school Denise…

On 2013-12-06 19:43:06, John Beemer wrote:
Joel Salatin states that "The China Study has been debunked by so many experts". Is he talking about the 23 year old elementary school Denise Minger? Campbell responded to her which I was actually surprised. People always like to hear good things about their bad habits.

Read more Read less

IQ2

6 December 2013 - 23:22 PM

On 2013-12-06 18:22:29, shawn wrote:The China Study critically questions meat eating, plain and simple. And Neal Barnard is clearly the scientific winner in this debate. In terms of health, eating…

On 2013-12-06 18:22:29, shawn wrote:
The China Study critically questions meat eating, plain and simple. And Neal Barnard is clearly the scientific winner in this debate. In terms of health, eating very little meat has been shown repeatedly to be preferable by so many peer reviewed studies, including the China Study. In terms of an ethical debate, a farmer-thinker like Wendell Berry in lieu of someone like Joel Salatan, who I do like at times, but seems incapable of balancing the arguments, would have been more stimulating. As a grower, I can say that Salatan doesn't understand crop-based agriculture very well. Also, the irritation, volume and desperate sarcasm from the "meat side" is itself irritating and rather telling. They turn it into a lame CNN or Fox News style debate at times. Interesting but could've been better!

Read more Read less

IQ2

6 December 2013 - 21:24 PM

It seems the argument centers more on the emotional aspect of killing an animal, rather than what is the proper diet for homo sapiens. That's not what it is supposed…

It seems the argument centers more on the emotional aspect of killing an animal, rather than what is the proper diet for homo sapiens. That's not what it is supposed to be about. Our ancestors ate whatever plant food they could find. They also hunted, and enjoyed chunks of fresh meat. Period. What is bad today are all the starches and processed junk. Eat mostly veggies with the occasional meat and you should be good to go. I heartily recommend range fed bison as the best choice. Approximately 10,000 years is not time enough for us to have evolved away from this basic diet. It is but a second in time. Don't forget that meat provides many nutrients that can never be obtained with a vegetarian or vegan diet. And hopefully the real truth about the low-fat BS will come to light. I have visions of construction workers, farmers etc. trying to work after eating a low fat breakfast of yogurt and fruit. Get real!

Read more Read less

IQ2

6 December 2013 - 20:50 PM

On 2013-12-06 15:50:58, JohnF wrote:Let's see, how did humans evolve eating? Oh yeah...

On 2013-12-06 15:50:58, JohnF wrote:
Let's see, how did humans evolve eating? Oh yeah...

Read more Read less

IQ2

6 December 2013 - 20:37 PM

On 2013-12-06 15:37:34, Ron Swanson wrote:"There's been a mistake. You've accidentally given me the food that my food eats."

On 2013-12-06 15:37:34, Ron Swanson wrote:
"There's been a mistake. You've accidentally given me the food that my food eats."

Read more Read less

IQ2

6 December 2013 - 15:57 PM

On 2013-12-06 10:57:10, Dave Brown wrote:Given that 99% of modern animal agriculture is accomplished through factory farming, the debate became irrelevant if not absurd the moment that the opponents to…

On 2013-12-06 10:57:10, Dave Brown wrote:
Given that 99% of modern animal agriculture is accomplished through factory farming, the debate became irrelevant if not absurd the moment that the opponents to the motion conceded that factory farming is wrong.

Read more Read less

IQ2

6 December 2013 - 14:44 PM

On 2013-12-06 09:44:48, Young wrote:All the meat eaters are respectfully invited to watch these films/documentary: 1) Earthlings: http://earthlings.com/?page_id=32 (FREE) 2) Forks Over Knives: http://www.forksoverknives.com/ Good starters to touch and hopefully…

On 2013-12-06 09:44:48, Young wrote:
All the meat eaters are respectfully invited to watch these films/documentary: 1) Earthlings: http://earthlings.com/?page_id=32 (FREE) 2) Forks Over Knives: http://www.forksoverknives.com/ Good starters to touch and hopefully win hearts and minds.

Read more Read less

IQ2

6 December 2013 - 14:38 PM

Great debate! Well done Chris and Joel, very intelligent, logical and scientific arguments. Unimpressed with Neal and Gene unscientific and emotional arguments!

Read more Read less

IQ2

6 December 2013 - 13:57 PM

@ John Beemer, the US govt actually subsidises wheat, corn and soy, in order to flood the world with junk made of flour, cornflour, corn syrup, soy protein, corn oil…

@ John Beemer, the US govt actually subsidises wheat, corn and soy, in order to flood the world with junk made of flour, cornflour, corn syrup, soy protein, corn oil and soy oil. Yum! Vegan foods! That's why "we're big and fat" and in need of free healthcare, not from eating animals. NZ, which exports meat and dairy all over the world, has no farming subsidies at all.

Read more Read less

IQ2

6 December 2013 - 13:30 PM

Some questions - is it sustainable for everyone in the world to keep eating anything at all, even vegetable foods? Is it sustainable to produce B12 supplements for billions of…

Some questions - is it sustainable for everyone in the world to keep eating anything at all, even vegetable foods? Is it sustainable to produce B12 supplements for billions of people? Is it sustainable to convert pasture, which is an environment found in nature, to rows of grains and legumes, which are not? What about the fossil fuel used by tractors to grow crops, much more than that needed to herd sheep? The extra pesticides used? The unnatural fertilizers - including billions of dead fish - used to replenish the soil after growing crops? If factory farming is an argument against all meat farming, it is also an argument against all vegetable farming. Neither side of the debate approved of factory farming, so it was a massive red herring. P.S. "undecided" means "I am still not a vegan".

Read more Read less

IQ2

6 December 2013 - 11:59 AM

On 2013-12-06 06:59:14, Moalt wrote:I raise cattle organically. We preserve 90,000 acres of land in such a way that it is sustainable for generations to come. We would never profit…

On 2013-12-06 06:59:14, Moalt wrote:
I raise cattle organically. We preserve 90,000 acres of land in such a way that it is sustainable for generations to come. We would never profit if our goal was to ruin the land. We provide refuge for wildlife in greater numbers than most areas in our province. We have a serious wolf problem too, which should be an encouraging sign to many of you that our ecosystem is "healthy". We fertilize with chicken shit and ash. We refuse to use GMO seed. We don't drive to work on a freeway filled with single-occupant vehicles. We drive horses to work and feed them the healthy grass that's in our yard or the hay we grow here, without shipping it in. We sell to intelligent consumers who vote with their dollars for us to not use steroids or antibiotics instead of with their boycott of the wrong problem. The real problem? Too many people who are too detached from food production, looking for answers in the wrong place. Grass-fed, pasture rotated cattle actually tamp the ground as they use trapping gasses produced by their manure. Do your research by talking to a local producer. Quit listening to governing bodies and marketing ploys. Oh, and quit eating corn. If you want to find a culprit, there's a good start.

Read more Read less

IQ2

6 December 2013 - 11:46 AM

On 2013-12-06 06:46:23, Lynn wrote:
I respect vegetarians (even though the rabid "animals = people, meat is murder" types are frankly scary). But to state that people shouldn't consume anything they can't eat raw is to deny evolution. Scientists have concluded that eating meat and cooking our food is what allowed our brains to grow so large. One of dozens of articles on the topic: http://www.npr.org/2010/08/02/128849908/food-for-thought-meat-based-diet-made-us-smarter I was vegan for over a year, but I'm deathly allergic to soy, tree nuts, stone fruits, and (oddly) carrots and green beans. I'm talking instant, full-blown, moments-from-dying anaphylaxis, not mere hives or digestive upsets. Even following a diet that my RD customized for me, I lost too much weight, my hair started falling out, and I developed memory and immune problems. So the RD had me add some locally, responsibly raised animal products back into my diet. I've never been healthier or clearer-headed, and my cholesterol is "phenomenal" according to my doctor. I respect people who choose veganism for whatever reason(s), and they are lucky they CAN select that option. After much research and self-examination, I've made peace with my diet. My farmer's animals are raised with kindness and care and slaughtered (at a small local butcher) with respect and appreciation, as humanely as possible. Maybe those animals would prefer to die of old age if their understanding went that far, but there's no doubt they'd choose the kind of life and death my farmer provides over the short, merciless existence and brutal killing of a factory farm. Oh, and tell my 104-year-old grandmother that vegetarians are healthier and live longer - but prepare for a debate, because she's still as sharp as a tack.

Read more Read less

IQ2

6 December 2013 - 09:32 AM

On 2013-12-06 04:32:59, Jerilyn Greenfield wrote:I have been a vegetarian for over 35 years, and am extremely healthy, much healthier than when I ate meat. I have been going vegan…

On 2013-12-06 04:32:59, Jerilyn Greenfield wrote:
I have been a vegetarian for over 35 years, and am extremely healthy, much healthier than when I ate meat. I have been going vegan because of the cruelty in the dairy industry, and brought my cholesterol way down. No animal should ever have to suffer. They have intelligence, feelings and emotions just like people or like our pet dogs and cats. I am also against buying products with fur and leather. The stories I hear about animal cruelty break my heart!!!

Read more Read less

IQ2

6 December 2013 - 09:10 AM

On 2013-12-06 04:10:37, Bea Elliott wrote:I'm so thankful that I live in a time and a circumstance where I have the choice to be as compassionate as I'm moved to…

On 2013-12-06 04:10:37, Bea Elliott wrote:
I'm so thankful that I live in a time and a circumstance where I have the choice to be as compassionate as I'm moved to be. I appreciate that there are others in different situations who do not have this luxury. This debate wasn't to address those individuals who absolutely must use nonhumans for the sake of survival, but rather to appeal to us who have every option in the world to extend kindness to other animals. It is a gift of abundance that I have every intention on sharing with others. No... I won't be eating anyone with a face, a family or an equal desire to live.

Read more Read less

IQ2

6 December 2013 - 08:30 AM

On 2013-12-06 03:30:30, Kevin Tran wrote:"If you go to the real data, there is no correlation between meat intake and cancer. If you read T. Colin Campbell's book, what he…

On 2013-12-06 03:30:30, Kevin Tran wrote:
"If you go to the real data, there is no correlation between meat intake and cancer. If you read T. Colin Campbell's book, what he does is makes a convoluted argument that something is associated with meat intake, that thing is associated with cancer, and so on. And the actual data doesn't show a direct correlation." ~ Chris Masterjohn. Insufficient science, nutrition, evolution, etc; are some of many important points the con-side debated about, yet probably almost half of the debate focuses on the environmental and ethical considerations which the pro-side seemingly debated strongly about. I wouldn't be surprised if the 21% increase between the pre-debate and post-debate polls were due to Gene Baur's repetitive use of the word 'relationship' and/or the apparent fact millions of animals are slaughtered, when in fact, both sides already agreed factory farm is atrocious and should be removed. Are they just too convinced something with a face is too terrifying to eat? I don't know if our hominid ancestors would be proud or approve of this. Also, I wouldn't be surprised those people turned vegan as a result of this debate.

Read more Read less

IQ2

6 December 2013 - 08:07 AM

On 2013-12-06 03:07:14, Eve Botelho wrote:Unfortunately the debate had nearly ignored the fact that most of the food we eat now, which includes plants, is farmed on factory farms. The…

On 2013-12-06 03:07:14, Eve Botelho wrote:
Unfortunately the debate had nearly ignored the fact that most of the food we eat now, which includes plants, is farmed on factory farms. The conditions the animals live( exist in) are dreadful. They are totally exploited, just as slaves were. The conditions for the workerscannot be great either. Imagine the smell, the misery... I think most meat eaters if they allowed themselves to research the conditions would be saddened, no appaulled. Every time we put something in our mouths we make an ethical decision. Most people want to bury their heads in the sand and imagine that the animals spend happy lives in pastures. Think again. (male baby chicks are ground up alive, in egg factories.) These farms also cause pollution, run off into streams, and on and on. So healthy eating habits means a healthier planet and a healthy body, and just maybe a more compassionate world.

Read more Read less

IQ2

6 December 2013 - 07:19 AM

On 2013-12-06 02:19:36, Mike wrote:I think we are all our own experts and we all thrive on different diets. I wish somebody in the audience would have drove home the…

On 2013-12-06 02:19:36, Mike wrote:
I think we are all our own experts and we all thrive on different diets. I wish somebody in the audience would have drove home the point that processed foods and grains with sugars are probably most of the problem. I also find it interesting that Weston A Price was convinced he would find the healthiest primitive cultures would be vegetarians...he couldn't find any! He had a unique opportunity to find people that were eating the same way for several generations before modern civilization. Can't be done anymore. His findings are mighty hard to argue with because he was the type of scientist that is lacking today. One that is trying to prove himself wrong!!!

Read more Read less

IQ2

6 December 2013 - 06:29 AM

On 2013-12-06 01:29:15, Paola wrote:I am from Uruguay, the country with the biggest consumption of red meat in the world, and if you check the statistics of cancer in our…

On 2013-12-06 01:29:15, Paola wrote:
I am from Uruguay, the country with the biggest consumption of red meat in the world, and if you check the statistics of cancer in our country you could see how high certain types of cancer are there. Just google it, and you will stop eating meat!! We all have family members who have died of cancer. SAD!!!

Read more Read less

IQ2

6 December 2013 - 05:36 AM

On 2013-12-06 00:36:35, xVOSSx wrote:Listen to the losers cry! If we could live a healthy and happy life without causing harm to others, why wouldn't we? If your CHOICE has…

On 2013-12-06 00:36:35, xVOSSx wrote:
Listen to the losers cry! If we could live a healthy and happy life without causing harm to others, why wouldn't we? If your CHOICE has a victim, that is your karma, baby!

Read more Read less

IQ2

6 December 2013 - 05:30 AM

On 2013-12-06 00:30:09, Carolyn Dean MD ND wrote:It's a shame that someone well versed in the necessity of animal products such as animal fats and organ meats was not invited…

On 2013-12-06 00:30:09, Carolyn Dean MD ND wrote:
It's a shame that someone well versed in the necessity of animal products such as animal fats and organ meats was not invited to the debate. I've seen Sally Fallon of the Weston A. Price Foundation give detailed convincing arguments that counter the vegan agenda. I think a balance of both diets using organic and free range healthy foods is the best approach.

Read more Read less

IQ2

6 December 2013 - 04:44 AM

On 2013-12-05 23:44:02, kevin wrote:animal rights fanatics need to get a life

On 2013-12-05 23:44:02, kevin wrote:
animal rights fanatics need to get a life

Read more Read less

IQ2

6 December 2013 - 03:22 AM

On 2013-12-05 22:22:19, Teri Penn wrote:I am 60-year-old female who was feeling like a 70 year old. I really did not eat red meat, mostly chicken and salmon from Alaska.…

On 2013-12-05 22:22:19, Teri Penn wrote:
I am 60-year-old female who was feeling like a 70 year old. I really did not eat red meat, mostly chicken and salmon from Alaska. I felt my diet was pretty healthy. My diet was more like the South Beach diet. Over the years, I tried all sorts of diets just to loose weight, and only to gain most of it back, the roller-coaster ride. Well, just two months ago, I signed up for a 7-week PCRM diabetic’s class, which I thought was just a way to learn healthy ways to cook. I am not diabetic, however I took the class because of our nurse at school who over the years would always recommend this class. I liked taking this class because I felt we needed to be deprogrammed about animal protein, dairy and the processed foods out on the market. Two weeks into this class, my joints quit aching and I started to loose weight and got more energy. My workouts at the gym intensified due to this increase in energy. I am continuing to loose weight, along with my husband who also attended this class. He has lost 28 lbs in two months. Some would say that this is a lot of weight in a short time, however we are not feeling anything but a good well-being. I think the weight loss was more of a surprise to us, which is welcomed. I did find out after we finished the class that my husband was told he was pre-diabetic. He is 63 years old and now he looks great, feels great and I continue to tell him that his complexion is radiant! He plans to go in to get his blood results done next week…I know they will have dropped! I just which more people would not turn their nose on the word "vegan", think "plant based"...give it a try, I guarantee it will change your life for the good.

Read more Read less

IQ2

6 December 2013 - 01:46 AM

On 2013-12-05 20:46:22, Brian wrote:I only have one problem with this debate (and I'm speaking in the broader sense, not just this specific instance) - what is ultimate goal of…

On 2013-12-05 20:46:22, Brian wrote:
I only have one problem with this debate (and I'm speaking in the broader sense, not just this specific instance) - what is ultimate goal of those who are for the motion? To eliminate meat from our diets completely? Because if that's the goal, then they've already lost. I'm an omnivore and I don't care what any research says. As a species we've been omnivores since we learned to stand upright and make stone tools. And after all those THOUSANDS of years, we seem to have done pretty well for ourselves. I don't think 50 or so years of research is really going to stand up in the face of the aforementioned thousands of years of unbiased evidence to the contrary. If it's to modify the practices of the food industry, I'm fine with that, but then let's have THAT debate. This is the question I have for all the modern "movements" from the past 20+ years: what is your ultimate goal? Is it to eliminate someone or something? Then you're simply being selfish and you're no better than the people you fight against. Is it for improvements in the system? Then that's fine, but accept that some people won't want to change. While this world isn't perfect, it would be positively awful if people were unable to eat meat because we had legislated out choice.

Read more Read less

IQ2

6 December 2013 - 01:44 AM

On 2013-12-05 20:44:17, CanAmFam wrote:The statistics before and after the debate show that twice as many meat eaters refused to change their minds after a compelling argument against eating meat.…

On 2013-12-05 20:44:17, CanAmFam wrote:
The statistics before and after the debate show that twice as many meat eaters refused to change their minds after a compelling argument against eating meat. And many of the comments here reflect that dogmatic refusal to admit the flaws in their argument. One would think we were conversing with a bunch of Fox News loving, science-eschewing, climate change deniers by the lack of recognition of proven cause and effect impacts of our egregious meat consumption and health degradation/animal cruelty/environmental damage. The science is in. Humans do not need meat. Yes, our human ancestors hunted and consumed meat with little to no resemblance to the meat we consume today, nor did they consume meat anywhere approaching the amounts we eat today. Our human ancestors also practiced cannibalism, slavery and rape. The truth is most people choose to consume meat simply because it tastes good. It’s a purely selfish decision, and given today’s unsustainable, inexcusably inhumane and environmentally destructive system of industrial, meat-centic agriculture, one that is damaging not only to human health, but also the environment. I’m not saying everyone needs to be vegan. Only that people need to recognize that meat isn’t necessary in the human diet and that reducing one’s meat consumption is better for your health, the planet, and the welfare of farm animals.

Read more Read less

IQ2

6 December 2013 - 01:06 AM

On 2013-12-05 20:06:00, Darris wrote:Vegans can also eat poorly if they're eating 'fake' meats. It's interesting that the meat eating camp tells us about Weston Price research. Currently, most of…

On 2013-12-05 20:06:00, Darris wrote:
Vegans can also eat poorly if they're eating 'fake' meats. It's interesting that the meat eating camp tells us about Weston Price research. Currently, most of the Weston Price information circulating has been bastardized. In addition, Weston Price did not live in the 21st century where meat and dairy is toxic and tainted. Are you serious?! "Plants are sentient beings." Come on, plants do not have a brain or a central nervous system. I thought this ridiculous argument was passe. As a vibrant 59 year old vegan, much of what has been said about lacking health is so far from accurate it's amusing. I live surrounded by ranches raising cattle ~ dairy and beef. The environmental impact of these family farms is destroying our ocean from manure runoff. Additionally, the stench from spreading and shooting manure from massive sprinklers on the fields 10 months out of the year. I and millions of others who eat a healthy, plant-based diet are proof that a vegan diet is the path to vibrant health ~ my health, the animal's and the environment.

Read more Read less

IQ2

6 December 2013 - 00:42 AM

On 2013-12-05 19:42:16, Howard Berkowitz wrote:Hello.. I have not watched this video yet. I just wanted set an opinion before I watch it..If you eat meat, why? Because it taste…

On 2013-12-05 19:42:16, Howard Berkowitz wrote:
Hello.. I have not watched this video yet. I just wanted set an opinion before I watch it..If you eat meat, why? Because it taste good perhaps?,,,If it tastes good why do you cook it??? Because , it is not healthy to eat it raw, perhaps?,,,It might make me sick or worse? Perhaps??Well, do you not think we should not be eating anything with a face then???? Now I will watch the video.

Read more Read less

IQ2

6 December 2013 - 00:36 AM

On 2013-12-05 19:36:52, JRZGRL1 wrote:Eating meat is not a "personal" choice. In the process of eating meat, a living, sentient being is killed, usually at the end of a horrific…

On 2013-12-05 19:36:52, JRZGRL1 wrote:
Eating meat is not a "personal" choice. In the process of eating meat, a living, sentient being is killed, usually at the end of a horrific life. And in the case of dairy/eggs, sentient beings live in many ways even more horrific lives because they die when they are used up. If omnivores/carnivores want to be blind to what they are doing, I guess that is a personal choice. But the act itself? Nothing "personal" about it.

Read more Read less

IQ2

6 December 2013 - 00:28 AM

On 2013-12-05 19:28:57, donna zeigfinger wrote:Plants are not sentient beings. Please show proof before making statement

On 2013-12-05 19:28:57, donna zeigfinger wrote:
Plants are not sentient beings. Please show proof before making statement

Read more Read less

IQ2

6 December 2013 - 00:21 AM

In my opinion to have someone like Joel Salatin, who has a vested financial interest in promoting an "alternative" animal agriculture, is highly cynical of the organizers of this panel…

In my opinion to have someone like Joel Salatin, who has a vested financial interest in promoting an "alternative" animal agriculture, is highly cynical of the organizers of this panel and in bad faith, since it connotes an inherent conflict of interest. The other panelists have no financial ties to their position, as far as I know, except for charitable donations or grants they receive. Joel is a commercial farmer who makes money off of the slaughtered bodies of animals. Why would anyone expect him to have an enlightened view on the ethics of eating animals when the very pretext of his enterprise is to use them as commodities?

Read more Read less

IQ2

6 December 2013 - 00:21 AM

On 2013-12-05 19:21:45, Amy Noble wrote:I've been vegetarian for 20 years and have just become vegan. I'm healthy, full of energy and people always tell me I look about 21…

On 2013-12-05 19:21:45, Amy Noble wrote:
I've been vegetarian for 20 years and have just become vegan. I'm healthy, full of energy and people always tell me I look about 21 (I'm 32) Human adults are not supposed to consume milk, and definitely not from another species! The body is able to easily get protein, calcium, omega 3 etc from beans, nuts, seeds and vegetables. There is no reason to consume animal products. Animal based diets come with a multitude of health risks from heart disease, cancer to obesity. You never see a fat vegan!

Read more Read less

IQ2

6 December 2013 - 00:00 AM

On 2013-12-05 19:00:24, Jamie wrote:I went vegetarian at age 15, vegan at 30. I love it! I would NEVER go back. I used to have terrible asthma and allergies, which…

On 2013-12-05 19:00:24, Jamie wrote:
I went vegetarian at age 15, vegan at 30. I love it! I would NEVER go back. I used to have terrible asthma and allergies, which are now completely gone. My skin is clear, I have tons of energy and am VERY HEALTHY! Try it, you won't regret it when you see how amazing you feel!

Read more Read less

IQ2

5 December 2013 - 22:11 PM

On 2013-12-05 17:11:34, Lisa Rufus wrote:
You know what would be nice? If all these folks could be AGAINST factory farming together, rather than fruitlessly fighting amongst themselves. Personal anecdotes about how your particular diet made you healthy is nice, but that doesn't mean the diet that worked for YOUR body will work for everyone else. Why is it so difficult to just respect each others choices if its done so mindfully? I don't believe that one diet will work for everyone. Hence why there are the stereotypes of vegans being sickly and pale, and on the flip side meat eaters who are overweight and struggle with health problems. Mindful eaters likely will not fall into either of these stereotypes because they will eat right for their bodies. Some people simply do no digest meat well and thrive on a plant based diet. That's okay. Others get sickly and weak without some good red meat in their diet. THAT'S OKAY TOO. And if you are vegan mainly based on you moral conviction that all death is cruel and wrong, realize that you basing that on emotion and not science and therefore should be willing to accept that people will disagree with your opinion based on their own moral convictions. Kind of like how religious folks disagree.

Read more Read less

IQ2

5 December 2013 - 21:33 PM

I continually hear from people that “choices” must be respected. “You eat what you want and I’ll eat what I want.” And don’t judge other’s for what they choose to…

I continually hear from people that “choices” must be respected. “You eat what you want and I’ll eat what I want.” And don’t judge other’s for what they choose to eat.” This comes from both vegan and meat eaters alike. If eating animals is a choice, then we must believe in at least the following six absurdities: 1. that we as humans have some sort of unspoken and inherited “right” to kill and eat animals no matter how trivial our reasons and just because we can; 2. that humans are “superior” to all other species and that somehow that superiority translates into a justification for doing whatever we want to animals. In this way, human interests always “trump” animal interests, even when the human interest is trivial and the animal interest is a matter of life and death; 3. that all animals conveniently exist only to serve one species — our own (even though most have existed in some form for millions of years before homo sapiens); 4. that just being a member of another species somehow justifies exploiting someone; 5. that we can turn animals into objects without making them victims; 6. that the victim does not exist or does not care what happens to him or her. On the other hand, If you take the interests of animals at all seriously, then you recognize that eating animal products violates their most fundamental interest in living as free agents, staying alive and avoiding pain and suffering. A choice necessitates ownership over the options. While we may legally treat animals as property, no one has a moral “right” over the sovereignty of others who were designed by nature to be free agents as we are. “If we believe in absurdities, we shall commit atrocities.” Voltaire’s famous words could not be more fitting here. - See more at: http://freefromharm.org/animal-products-and-ethics/six-absurdities-that-defend-eating-animals-as-a-choice/#sthash.glxkyyuq.dpuf

Read more Read less

IQ2

5 December 2013 - 21:27 PM

On 2013-12-05 16:27:05, Mark Shields wrote:so all these people that voted in favor of not eating animals with faces, after watching this debate... wonder how many will follow through with…

On 2013-12-05 16:27:05, Mark Shields wrote:
so all these people that voted in favor of not eating animals with faces, after watching this debate... wonder how many will follow through with that long-term

Read more Read less

IQ2

5 December 2013 - 21:07 PM

On 2013-12-05 16:07:55, alison wrote:to vote for either side, it would have been nice to have the button for that side under a picture of the people presenting that side…

On 2013-12-05 16:07:55, alison wrote:
to vote for either side, it would have been nice to have the button for that side under a picture of the people presenting that side of the equation. 'against' is obviously a negative position and it would be interesting if the results would be in any way different if one were voting for a side and not a for or against position.

Read more Read less

IQ2

5 December 2013 - 20:45 PM

On 2013-12-05 15:45:13, Edward Cummings wrote:I remember doing a similar debate when I was studying for my Animal Science BSc degree. “This House believes that Animals are Fundamental to the…

On 2013-12-05 15:45:13, Edward Cummings wrote:
I remember doing a similar debate when I was studying for my Animal Science BSc degree. “This House believes that Animals are Fundamental to the Future of Food Supply for the World” and the for side won but maybe the voters were fellow animal science students and this degree might not exist in a vegan world? Some pointers I raised during the debate include that food aren't the only products we get from animals as this link shows- http://www.blisstree.com/2010/10/27/food/infographic-do-vegans-really-exist/ and there are vegan alternatives to these products but said alternatives might be worse than the animal product they are replacing in relation to the environment and/or human health. Personally I would go with the product which is best for example before the 1980's insulin for diabetics came from cows and pigs but it is now made from genetically modified microbes- http://www.abpischools.org.uk/page/modules/diabetes/diabetes6.cfm?coSiteNavigation_allTopic=1. Two more pointers I found was that 65% of the land type fond on our planet can be considered to be too wet, dry or mountainous for use in arable farming and In 2009 Helmi Risku-Norja, Sirpa Kurppa, Juha Helenius discover that an individual persons dietary choice has little effect on the environment and if the whole world where to change to a vegan it will only reduce greenhouse emissions by 7% which is small compared to if we were to decrease are use of fossil fuel (• Helmi Risku-Norja, Sirpa Kurppa, Juha Helenius. Dietary choices and greenhouse gas emissions -- assessment of impact of vegetarian and organic options at national scale. Progress in Industrial Ecology An International Journal, 2009). Such information might be out of date now so here is some recent research- http://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/sustainable-livestock-production-is-possible If the information I have posted have changed your mind then that's OK if it hasn't then that is OK as well I'm not going to force you to change.

Read more Read less

IQ2

5 December 2013 - 19:58 PM

On 2013-12-05 14:58:41, Jaime wrote:To people saying it's "natural" for us to eat animal products, let me just that first, there is nothing natural about today's farming practices and production.…

On 2013-12-05 14:58:41, Jaime wrote:
To people saying it's "natural" for us to eat animal products, let me just that first, there is nothing natural about today's farming practices and production. Second, if it's so natural, why are we the only omnivores that need some process to interfere with our consumption? When was the last time you just took a big bite out of a live animal and started eating?

Read more Read less

IQ2

5 December 2013 - 19:10 PM

On 2013-12-05 14:10:32, Patricia Massari wrote:
To address a couple misconceptions of recent posts...one person said this talk to be more scientific...Dr. Barnard has conducted dozens of peer reviewed studies, was granted $350,000 from the NIH to conduct a study regarding diabetes and is often asked to be a peer reviewer of other studies. His work is often consistent with the work of Dr. Caldwell Esseltyn, T. Colin Campbell, Dr. Joel Furhman and others...further unlike Mr. Salatin, whose livelihood depends on exploiting and killing animals...Dr. Barnard has nothing to sell except books, and ideas...so to suggest what he says is not backed by science is inaccurate. Another person drug out the (yawn) old argument that vegans are "pasty and sickly". I would say look around and advance your argument to this century. Just google Rich Roll, Brendan Brazier, Scott Jurek, Vegan Bodybuilding and fitness, the list goes on...I guess Natalie Portman, Carrie Underwood, Emily Deschanel, Patrik Baumbomian (world's strongest man), etc.., etc...are pasty and sickly? I am 46 and an athlete and dominate my omnivore competitors...your argument is old and unstudied and has no bearing in reality...Further, I can tell you as a cardiac nurse the number of overweight, obese and ailing omnivores I see. The get wheeled in and out daily to get their cardiac catheterizations, stents, bypass surgeries...they are often on 10 meds because many of them have type 2 diabetes and hypertension as well..their cardiac and diabetes issues have been proven to be able to be prevented and reversed with a strictly plant based diet... Bottom line...animal agriculture is extremely cruel, makes us more unhealthy, is unsustainable/is killing the earth (accounts more more greenhouse gas emissions than ALL forms of transportation combined), takes food and water from people who could use it to fatten animals who will die for our plates to continue this unwise cycle and is completely unnecessary..Species are decimated as more land is cleared to inefficiently raise animals who are no different than our dogs and cats...Anything we wouldn't want done to our companion animals is not "humane". On the other end billions of animals are tortured in labs to try to cure disease we often bring on ourselves with diet choices..Most people can not even bear to see a slaughter video or learn the truth...that is not the behavior of a "predator" or carnivore? The world is changing...I know it's tough because people are used to the institutionalized suffering of the animals and eating foods that ultimately make them sick oftentimes. But if one cares about animals, has children that they want to inherit a livable earth and are concerned about driving down healthcare costs (Kaiser Permanente recently sent out a suggestion that doctors should be recommending vegan/strictly plant based diets to their patients)...it's never been easier to do the right thing on so many levels...

Read more Read less

IQ2

5 December 2013 - 18:46 PM

On 2013-12-05 13:46:35, Young wrote:The reason we used to or still are eat everything or anything with a face is because we were/are too comfortably unaware. We may hold strong…

On 2013-12-05 13:46:35, Young wrote:
The reason we used to or still are eat everything or anything with a face is because we were/are too comfortably unaware. We may hold strong opinion as to why we should continue to do so, but if and only if we are open to feeling less comfortable, we could then explore genuinely to become aware, of all the facts, then we could all make an informed, educated and enlightened decision.

Read more Read less

IQ2

5 December 2013 - 18:20 PM

On 2013-12-05 13:20:41, mark rogers wrote:the "for" argument is assuming that all meat eaters are eating meat from animals that weren't allowed to be animals. Barnard kept talking about the…

On 2013-12-05 13:20:41, mark rogers wrote:
the "for" argument is assuming that all meat eaters are eating meat from animals that weren't allowed to be animals. Barnard kept talking about the dangers of bologna and hot dogs...yeah...no kidding. We agree on that. It's eating meat from animals that were allowed to live in their natural environments, and cutting out grains and sugars...meat eaters who eat cake at the end of every meal are not healthy.

Read more Read less

IQ2

5 December 2013 - 18:20 PM

On 2013-12-05 13:20:29, Jharris wrote:"Should we tell lions in the wild not to hunt?" Ridiculous. Wild animals aren't moral reasoning beings they have no concept of ethics they react purely…

On 2013-12-05 13:20:29, Jharris wrote:
"Should we tell lions in the wild not to hunt?" Ridiculous. Wild animals aren't moral reasoning beings they have no concept of ethics they react purely to primal instinct. You prove nothing by comparing them to us. A lion doesn't factory farm, a lion doesn't kill more than it needs, a lion doesn't export it's prey internationally, a lion doesn't pump it's prey full of steriods and other drugs. Wild animals don't need to answer to human laws an ethics. What's next, you gonna ask if lions ought to be tried for murder or something? A lion needs meat to survive. It has to kill. We don't.

Read more Read less

IQ2

5 December 2013 - 18:01 PM

On 2013-12-05 13:01:15, Jharris wrote:The fact that we are 'from a privledged class' is the reason why I choose to be vegan! I live in a society where I can…

On 2013-12-05 13:01:15, Jharris wrote:
The fact that we are 'from a privledged class' is the reason why I choose to be vegan! I live in a society where I can survive easily without killing, so why would I? I acknowledge the important part meat played in our evolution and I also acknowledge that being able to choose to be vegan is a luxury many on this planet don't have. If I lived in a third world country I would eat whatever I needed to to survive, likewise if I lived 100,000 years ago like 'our ancestors'. Fact of the matter is I live in a modern, first world country. I'm not going to starve, I'm not going to die of a vitamin deficiency. I can get any food I want from the local store and failing that, the internet. Just because something's natural or primal, doesn't make it ethical, often times our caveman urges and our ethics are in opposition to one another. It's one of those 'separates us from the animals' type things...

Read more Read less

IQ2

5 December 2013 - 16:57 PM

On 2013-12-05 11:57:08, catherine wrote:I have been vegetarian for over 30 years and in and out of veganism. I am now totally vegan and have never felt better. I feel…

On 2013-12-05 11:57:08, catherine wrote:
I have been vegetarian for over 30 years and in and out of veganism. I am now totally vegan and have never felt better. I feel my contribution to the humane protection of all animals is so minor but I am at least doing my part. I don't feel like arguing the point. We all evolve in our own time. 10 years from now, we will all be vegan.

Read more Read less

IQ2

5 December 2013 - 15:45 PM

Unfortunatley the core of the argument on the For side is based on factory farming, so while the moderator repeatedly announced that niether side was in agreement with factory farming,…

Unfortunatley the core of the argument on the For side is based on factory farming, so while the moderator repeatedly announced that niether side was in agreement with factory farming, it was kind of difficult to debate given that's what the For side's argument was built on. Additoinally, it was mentioned that some farm animals were sterlized on the Farm Sanctuary, as a woman who was sterilized, trust me that procedure and the resulting aftereffects is neither humane or peaceful. I definitely support the Masterjohn/Salitin Against side as they were able to bring to light the traditoinal role of animals in reference to not only our survival, but to our ability to thrive, the scientific and research that supports these assertions, and a new paradiam in farming practices that honors both animals and humans. Well done gentlemen.

Read more Read less

IQ2

5 December 2013 - 13:09 PM

On 2013-12-05 08:09:52, Marty wrote:Bizarre comments indeed George, like yours. Privileged you say, lol, like fruits veggies and beans potatoes rice etc are for the elite! Get a grip, vegans…

On 2013-12-05 08:09:52, Marty wrote:
Bizarre comments indeed George, like yours. Privileged you say, lol, like fruits veggies and beans potatoes rice etc are for the elite! Get a grip, vegans aren't preaching one and only. It is more for the animals than anything but there is also real science to back up what the likes of the speakers are saying and beyond. Want to talk pseudoscience, paleo, low carb and atkins... all debunked by real science. Why not check out plant positive on you tube if you dare where he breaks it all down.

Read more Read less

IQ2

5 December 2013 - 13:09 PM

On 2013-12-05 08:09:02, Sheila Kuhn wrote:I beg to differ with the individual that called "turkey hugs" "pure Walt Disney" We have a rooster that is more physically affectionate than the…

On 2013-12-05 08:09:02, Sheila Kuhn wrote:
I beg to differ with the individual that called "turkey hugs" "pure Walt Disney" We have a rooster that is more physically affectionate than the cats and dogs that live with us and I have photographs to prove it. I am a grandmother, a vegan, I live in one of the unhealthiest and fattest states in the country because the culture of Appalachia still dictates at every turn that people live on cheap, processed or fast food, dairy and animal flesh. I assure you that I don't live in Disney Land! I simply understand that this bird is a very loving sentient being because I have witnessed his behaviors personally. Over the years we have hosted rescue sheep, pigs, and goats that have commonly displayed affectionate sentient behaviors. People don't enjoy thinking of their "food" as being "real or feeling" beings because if they did, they would have to stop eating them and they don't want to do that. Some are "emotionally" connected to their hungry desire to unthinkingly consume animals.. In fact, many people wouldn't know HOW to eat a healthy, whole food, plant based diet (on a budget or otherwise) where I live. Education is the key to a healthier more compassionate lifestyle and I am grateful for debates such as this one. Thank you.

Read more Read less

IQ2

5 December 2013 - 11:44 AM

On 2013-12-05 06:44:50, Karen wrote:I used to eat meat, milk, cheese and eggs up until 11 months ago. I felt healthy but my check up proved otherwise. I am a…

On 2013-12-05 06:44:50, Karen wrote:
I used to eat meat, milk, cheese and eggs up until 11 months ago. I felt healthy but my check up proved otherwise. I am a 55 year old female and was surprised to see my cholesterol in the high danger zone. I was told I to fill the prescription of statin drugs with no mention of changing my diet. I started reading on the dangers of statin drugs and got scared. By change, I saw Forks over Knives and it started a title wave of knowledge. I decided to go on a plant based diet and immediately I felt better. After only 6 months, my cholesterol went from 260 to 188. Every morning It took me a good 4 or 5 steps before I could stand up straight because of "arthritis". It's gone!! My skin, which I have always had trouble with outbreaks of blemishes, CLEAR! My depression that would ebb and flow, GONE. I read some of these comments bashing this diet and I just shake my head. People can have such closed minds. I eat what my ancestors ate...blah blah blah. Well they had to eat that to survive. But we have science now and Harvards' new study just said to get all dairy out of your diet. We know o much more than our ancestors and they on average only lived to the early 30's at best. People strongly oppose giving up their meat and it reminds me of a drug addict when you threaten to take their drugs away. Violent opposition! How can someone justify putting 50 billion land animals a year through an inhumane life filled with abuse, confinement, emotional distress, physical distress, mutilation, pain and suffering when we don't need to eat them to live healthy lives. Its not only selfish, it's arrogant that people think they have the right to do such horrible things to animals, just because we can. In addition to my excellent health check up, I also lost my belly fat. I lost about 30 pounds and am considered to be the correct weight for my height. This was major for my self confidence. I feel so much better about myself in every way. i wish everyone would give this a try and prove to themselves, there is nothing to fear, but fear. I will stay on this diet for the rest of my life.

Read more Read less

IQ2

5 December 2013 - 11:43 AM

On 2013-12-05 06:43:48, sundra r allen wrote:I have been a vegan for 26+ years and my health keeps improving.

On 2013-12-05 06:43:48, sundra r allen wrote:
I have been a vegan for 26+ years and my health keeps improving.

Read more Read less

IQ2

5 December 2013 - 11:19 AM

On 2013-12-05 06:19:46, Philipp wrote:Just one book recommondation or two and re-think please: The vegetarian myth Primal mind primal body Human diet Evolution Paleo solution Epi-paleo rx Just some of…

On 2013-12-05 06:19:46, Philipp wrote:
Just one book recommondation or two and re-think please: The vegetarian myth Primal mind primal body Human diet Evolution Paleo solution Epi-paleo rx Just some of the most comprehensive books I ve ever read! Have an omnivorous day:))

Read more Read less

IQ2

5 December 2013 - 11:12 AM

On 2013-12-05 06:12:29, Alice wrote:I am a vegetarian for 5 years now (occasionally eat fish and sheep feta cheese),. I saw a few harsh comments of people, meat eaters obviously,…

On 2013-12-05 06:12:29, Alice wrote:
I am a vegetarian for 5 years now (occasionally eat fish and sheep feta cheese),. I saw a few harsh comments of people, meat eaters obviously, don't know about their age, who pretend that eating meat happened since the Stone Age, But ever since, Humanity evolved, and we have different social, economic and cultural conditions. I must dare we evolved, am I wrong ? I for one always loved animals, but still ate meat until I found out from a documentary done by Vegan Outreach about the atrocities that are going on in the Factory Farms, and decided right on the spot that I don't want to be part of this holocaust, no matter what. Little I realized that along with my decision, I also received the gift of perfect health. With the meat replacements out there, and great recipes you can find on the internet, vegan eating becomes easier, more fun to cook and more tasteful.. In a society in which indoctrination, lack of moral principles, and empathy toward suffering are norm, these opinions don't come as a surprise to me at all. I am sure of the fact that 99% of the people still eat meat, and they will continue to eat (including my all family members), Mother Nature however has its own way of regulating things in the Universe, and I believe that no matter what eye openers we have around us, what is meant to happen will happen. I just hope that people will wake up in a timely manner.

Read more Read less

IQ2

5 December 2013 - 10:06 AM

On 2013-12-05 05:06:41, Personne wrote:
Humans can chose to eat others things than sensitive individuals. Statistic studies prove than vegetarians live longer than meat eaters. Americans eat three times as much meat per person than the average human (and forty times as much meat per person than Indians). UN urges global move to meat and dairy-free diet for ecological reasons. GM soy is cultivated in Amazonia in order to feed our farm animals. And scientific studies prove than humanity will be globally vegetarian by 2050 in order to be able to feed all humans on Earth. Try to learn. You can fight with your denial as long as you want. Facts will stay. End of debate.

Read more Read less

IQ2

5 December 2013 - 10:05 AM

On 2013-12-05 05:05:03, Helen Tam-Semmens wrote:I became a vegan after I came to the realization that animal farming these days is horrific. We have no right to put animals through…

On 2013-12-05 05:05:03, Helen Tam-Semmens wrote:
I became a vegan after I came to the realization that animal farming these days is horrific. We have no right to put animals through such hell. But then I was pleasantly surprised when all my ailments just went away after I became a vegan ... my Rheumatoid Arthritis, my acid reflux, my high cholesterol, etc. And I feel better and full of energy like never before. And I have no need of supplements either. I am fully convinced that a vegan diet is what we humans are meant to eat. In our evolutionary history, some of our ancestors ate meat occasionally due to necessity, such as to hold them through harsh winter. But when our body and digestive system were developed, our ancestors' diet were predominately vegan, because our teeth and digestive system today is very similar to those of fruit and veggie eaters, and very different from meat-eaters.

Read more Read less

IQ2

5 December 2013 - 09:44 AM

On 2013-12-05 04:44:00, Robert Les wrote:Wow, some oddball comments from some posters. Murderers? Look, those that are vegans are not likely to change their minds any more than most meat…

On 2013-12-05 04:44:00, Robert Les wrote:
Wow, some oddball comments from some posters. Murderers? Look, those that are vegans are not likely to change their minds any more than most meat eaters are to become vegans. It's a personal choice, of course. What's right is what works best for you usually. Some claim religious type reasons for not killing animals while others point out the same examples in their Bible where the "chosen group" ate fish and lamb and sacrificed animals. So what's to be believed. This expert says this. Another contradicts that. I can only read many sources and check up on whose paying for the research and try and determine whose lying and biased. My family have all been meat eaters and all died in their 90's with no apparent health problems. Others claim the same for their vegan relatives. So, there ya go

Read more Read less

IQ2

5 December 2013 - 09:26 AM

EAT YOUR FOOD RAW, AS DO ALL OTHER SPECIES OF ANIMAL, and if you can't eat it as ALL other species of animals eat it then you probably have no…

EAT YOUR FOOD RAW, AS DO ALL OTHER SPECIES OF ANIMAL, and if you can't eat it as ALL other species of animals eat it then you probably have no business eating it.... Diet is not rocket science other animals don't have the consul of self professed nutritional dietary professionals within their species, why are humans so confused?

Read more Read less

IQ2

5 December 2013 - 09:16 AM

On 2013-12-05 04:16:42, Marea wrote:I am a happy, content omnivore. I am 58 yrs. old. Weigh 118 lbs., 5'4". My blood pressure is low normal. I have only ever had…

On 2013-12-05 04:16:42, Marea wrote:
I am a happy, content omnivore. I am 58 yrs. old. Weigh 118 lbs., 5'4". My blood pressure is low normal. I have only ever had one cavity. Nice smile, never had braces. Into my fifties my GYN said she just didn't see uteruses as healthy as mine and was tested positive for having the perfect healthy environment for conceiving and nurturing a healthy baby. Same thing with my eye doctor, she couldn't believe that my eyes were getting better and doing things they shouldn't be able to do for my age. Most people fall out when they find out my age. I eat lots of pasture butter, always have. Nothing low fat. Get whole raw dairy when I can. I don't go for lean meat, but better cuts with more fat and grain and pasture raised. Pasture raised chiken, liver, eggs. I eat fish (not farm raised). I love fruits and vegetable and eat plenty of organic ones. I've never smoked, done drugs, rarely drink alcohol. I don't eat chips, crackers, white flour, rarely wheat, I use sprouted spelt mostly, I eat brown rice. stay away from soy, canola oil, vegetable oils, accept for olive, sesame, pumpkin, and coconut. I rarely eat foods with sugar. I do prepare treats using a little rapadura, coconut crystals, maple syrup or unheated honey occasionally. But what I've experienced is that as long as I'm getting plenty of fat in my diet I don't want or enjoy sugary desserts, but when I don't I start craving the sugar. Truely, I grew up eating a diet similar to this. Good balanced meals, with lots of variety. Whole milk form the milk man at every meal, a small glass of juice with breakfast Otherwise we drank water. Butter, eggs, meat with fat! Fresh fish because we lived near the ocean. We never had kool-aid, candy (accept at halloween) Cookies (accept rare special homemade ones). Year after year I never missed a day of school. Never remember being sick as a child accept with the 3 day measles. And now, I am almost never sick (maybe once every three yrs.) I may get a mild cold or flu. I'm not on any medications. About 2 yrs ago I started juicing every day and I ended up with a kidney infection because the vegetables I was using were so high in oxalic acids. I hadn't had a kidney infection for thirty years before that and only that one time. I do not believe it was the meat alone that has made the difference for all those vegetarians and their nonvegetarian ailing friends. There is a much bigger picture to explore. What kind of meat and dairy were you putting into your body? How much refined substance were you or they putting into the body.

Read more Read less

IQ2

5 December 2013 - 09:13 AM

On 2013-12-05 04:13:02, John Beemer wrote:People don't want to change because it's hard to change for most people. All the people posting comments that eat meat/dairy want to hear good…

On 2013-12-05 04:13:02, John Beemer wrote:
People don't want to change because it's hard to change for most people. All the people posting comments that eat meat/dairy want to hear good new about their bad habits. It amazes me how blind people are. I've been eating a plant based diet for over 3 years and have never felt better. I didn't do it for the animals but for me. I loved eating big fat steaks and burgers. They tasted great but I was unhealthy and fat. Fat is the new norml. I'm 5'11 and 170 lbs. I can bench press 250 and I'm 47 years old. I'm not pale and weak. Government it probably the biggest problem. They subsidize meat/dairy so we get big and fat. Then they give us free healthcare if you qualify.

Read more Read less

IQ2

5 December 2013 - 08:56 AM

On 2013-12-05 03:56:43, Yuka wrote:Joel Salatin said we need meats for poor. Does he know 70 to 80 % of grains produced in US go to feed livestocks? We could…

On 2013-12-05 03:56:43, Yuka wrote:
Joel Salatin said we need meats for poor. Does he know 70 to 80 % of grains produced in US go to feed livestocks? We could feed hungry people with those grains and it's cheaper to produce grains and veggies than raising cows. He pretends like he cares about the poor, then he said meat price should be triple, and argue those bad health results from meat eating apply to Factory Farming meats. What kind of meats should poor eat, sir?

Read more Read less

IQ2

5 December 2013 - 08:54 AM

On 2013-12-05 03:54:06, Chad G wrote:When I was about 9, my uncle took me with him to work his rice field with the combine. I was raised around hunting and…

On 2013-12-05 03:54:06, Chad G wrote:
When I was about 9, my uncle took me with him to work his rice field with the combine. I was raised around hunting and fishing, but I was shocked by the death that I witnessed. I remember snakes, mice, rabbits, and "marsh hens" as he called them being raked and I suspect killed by the combine. To those who say that a vegan diet is without harm, I respectfully disagree. Don't just take my word, ask any farmer if what I am saying is true. Namaste.

Read more Read less

IQ2

5 December 2013 - 08:49 AM

On 2013-12-05 03:49:42, Mike B. wrote:I have 3 grandparents, 2 aunts and 3 uncles who died of heart disease and both my parents have had multiple heart bypass surgeries, so…

On 2013-12-05 03:49:42, Mike B. wrote:
I have 3 grandparents, 2 aunts and 3 uncles who died of heart disease and both my parents have had multiple heart bypass surgeries, so it seems I should have heart disease by now. I don't and my blood tests including cholesterol, c-reactive protein, homocysteine, testosterone, and calcium are all optimum/near optimum from eating a vegan diet and very little refined grains and sugar for the past 3 years. I haven't been sick, had allergies, indigestion, heart burn or tight joints since I switched. There are those who want to "eat like our ancestors", but we don't really know what they ate, and they probably ate whatever they could in their region depending on the climate and what was available. Even if they did eat meat, so what? I want to eat healthier than that. I also don't want to contribute to the 40 billion animals a year born into suffering.

Read more Read less

IQ2

5 December 2013 - 08:28 AM

On 2013-12-05 03:28:45, Julie wrote:I've spent the last ten years studying sustainability; and can assure you that the impact livestock has on the environment is profound. From soil degradation to…

On 2013-12-05 03:28:45, Julie wrote:
I've spent the last ten years studying sustainability; and can assure you that the impact livestock has on the environment is profound. From soil degradation to water pollution and greenhouse gas emissions, the meat and dairy industry is causing more devastation than any other human practice. It is true that there are people on this planet who need animal products to survive, but I am certain they don't include anyone reading this post. It is also true that many people adopt veganism without bothering to learn about nutrition. Unfortunately, they give the rest of us a bad name. Many of the healthiest, strongest, fastest and longest-lived people on earth do not eat anything with a face. Others have cured themselves of the most common illnesses plaguing the western world today.

Read more Read less

IQ2

5 December 2013 - 07:48 AM

On 2013-12-05 02:48:24, Juicy T bone steak wrote:So Mary Smythe I hope you don't use leather goods like shoes, belts, bags, car seats , furniture the list goes on and…

On 2013-12-05 02:48:24, Juicy T bone steak wrote:
So Mary Smythe I hope you don't use leather goods like shoes, belts, bags, car seats , furniture the list goes on and on !! Better check your cosmetics as well they are loaded with animal products! And do you go into grocery stores that sell these "Murdered" souls ?? I hope not ! And if these animals are being murdered are you doing everything possible to save them ? Or is this your effort put forth in saving these "Murdered" souls ....writing a comment ?? Better go and set some cows free to tonight or chickens Maybe they can move in with you

Read more Read less

IQ2

5 December 2013 - 07:37 AM

On 2013-12-05 02:37:53, Suze wrote:I agree with Ryan. I don't think it was a total sham, but it was apparent from the very beginning that the moderator favored the pro-vegan…

On 2013-12-05 02:37:53, Suze wrote:
I agree with Ryan. I don't think it was a total sham, but it was apparent from the very beginning that the moderator favored the pro-vegan side. And when he cut off Chris Masterjohn on his analysis of the claims of one his opponents and stated that this was an ad hominem attack, it became abundantly clear that the debate was not really about science. Too bad. I do think several things could have been mentioned by Chris and Joel that would have laid to rest the debate once and for all, at least from a health perspective, including some of Dr. Price's findings of the exceptionally healthy and disease-free "primitive" peoples he studied almost a century ago, all of whom coveted animal fat and all whom ate animal fat and meat in varying amounts, but all in all I thought the "against" side was very strong. And I commend them for pointing out that we are all *individuals*. Whoda thunk? Some of us cannot live healthy lives without animal meat and fat in our diets. Some of us can. Many of us have tried to live without and have become unwell as a result. The pro-vegan side did not seem to recognize individual differences in human nutritional needs. Although it's possible they mentioned it and I missed it since the video stopped and buffered for long periods a few times.

Read more Read less

IQ2

5 December 2013 - 07:24 AM

On 2013-12-05 02:24:12, Dinh Tran wrote:I now feel great switching to a pure vegetarian 'vegan' diet from a Lacto-Ovo Vegetarian (including Dairy and eggs in my diet) not long ago.…

On 2013-12-05 02:24:12, Dinh Tran wrote:
I now feel great switching to a pure vegetarian 'vegan' diet from a Lacto-Ovo Vegetarian (including Dairy and eggs in my diet) not long ago. I take a high strength Vitamin B12 supplement every few days and also Algae DHA for Omega 3 regularly. A pure vegetarian 'vegan' diet helped me achieve my ideal healthy weight. I have never felt better; all thanks to following the advice in Dr. Neal Barnard's books and reading 'Diet For A New America' by John Robbins. We can all look forward to a future where people will be sitting together around camp fires and telling fascinating stories of when humans sickened themselves by consuming the corpses of dead animals.

Read more Read less

IQ2

5 December 2013 - 07:18 AM

On 2013-12-05 02:18:03, Berenice wrote:for those talking about ancestral diet and traditions, one of the problems with eating meat, fish or any animals is that is NOT sustainable any more,…

On 2013-12-05 02:18:03, Berenice wrote:
for those talking about ancestral diet and traditions, one of the problems with eating meat, fish or any animals is that is NOT sustainable any more, regardless of health, the planet just cannot afford it any more, meat production is among the top causes of global warming, and causes hunger too! 70% of the crops in the US go to feed livestock, perhaps, regardless of my ethical veganism, 'before' we could afford to eat animals... Do your homework, the UN and NASA have studies that show that 2038 the oceans will be dead as ecosystems because of commercial fishing practices, the land is growing dryer, hotter, so eating as our grandparents did is not an option anymore! Humane meat is not sustainable either. Again, I am an ethical vegan, I stopped eating animals for personal moral reasons, but I later I learned that there are powerful environmental reasons to NOT eat meat... We must evolve as species and find ways to respect nature, animals, the planet, and ourselves.

Read more Read less

IQ2

5 December 2013 - 07:15 AM

On 2013-12-05 02:15:56, WCW3 wrote:Buzzards and vultures don't follow the tractors that till the fields for nothing. To produce enough plants to feed the same amount of people that two…

On 2013-12-05 02:15:56, WCW3 wrote:
Buzzards and vultures don't follow the tractors that till the fields for nothing. To produce enough plants to feed the same amount of people that two cows would feed, 55 other types of animals are KILLED. Or do vegans not care about the rabbits, woodchucks, groundhogs, mice, snakes ect ect. that the tractors blitzkrieg when they till the land? Not to mention the bugs! And if everyone was vegan, um... How many more forests would we have to clear to produce enough plants to feed us all? I AM an animal lover and steak is my favorite animal.

Read more Read less

IQ2

5 December 2013 - 07:01 AM

On 2013-12-05 02:01:37, Eve wrote:Thank you, Chris and Joel

On 2013-12-05 02:01:37, Eve wrote:
Thank you, Chris and Joel

Read more Read less

IQ2

5 December 2013 - 06:50 AM

On 2013-12-05 01:50:23, Sherri wrote:GregWoolhouse 30 thousand rabbits on 30 acres is ridiculous even if you were farming rabbits. I had 14 acres in Kansas on the river and never…

On 2013-12-05 01:50:23, Sherri wrote:
GregWoolhouse 30 thousand rabbits on 30 acres is ridiculous even if you were farming rabbits. I had 14 acres in Kansas on the river and never saw close to a thousand rabbits. Just in the last two weeks you planted blueberries but two years ago they were doing fine? Is this the new math or did your deer time travel from the past to eat your berries. I submit you live in DC in an apartment.

Read more Read less

IQ2

5 December 2013 - 06:50 AM

On 2013-12-05 01:50:09, UTL wrote:@Bova - Fun fact about Masterjohn: he's a contributor/writer for the Weston A. Price Foundation - a meat and dairy/anti-soy lobbyist group. http://www.westonaprice.org/blogs/cmasterjohn/

On 2013-12-05 01:50:09, UTL wrote:
@Bova - Fun fact about Masterjohn: he's a contributor/writer for the Weston A. Price Foundation - a meat and dairy/anti-soy lobbyist group. http://www.westonaprice.org/blogs/cmasterjohn/

Read more Read less

IQ2

5 December 2013 - 06:47 AM

On 2013-12-05 01:47:06, Paula wrote:Question for the 21st century: If aliens came here and saw us as "meat" would we then be "meat:"? ANIMALS ARE NOT MEAT. They are beings…

On 2013-12-05 01:47:06, Paula wrote:
Question for the 21st century: If aliens came here and saw us as "meat" would we then be "meat:"? ANIMALS ARE NOT MEAT. They are beings in their own right who deserve what we want for ourselves ... to live in peace, unharassed, and free from bodily harm. I wish the consciousness and therefore the language would change. Animals are not meat. And what we do to the animals we do to ourselves. It's karma. And karma is moving very fast now.

Read more Read less

IQ2

5 December 2013 - 06:43 AM

Some bizarre comments here. I eat meat, fat, fruit, green veges and some starchy roots. Basically I eat what my ancestors ate. Here we have people of a privileged class,…

Some bizarre comments here. I eat meat, fat, fruit, green veges and some starchy roots. Basically I eat what my ancestors ate. Here we have people of a privileged class, who have lost contact with their own ancestral cultural identity, telling the rest of the world not to eat their ancestral diet, with no science except pseudoscience to back up that this is a good or even a safe idea. The vegan experiment amounts to 1% of the population of Western countries, and people who can and do drop out and eat meat whenever it suits them. Not to mention supplements, imported superfoods, easy access to blood transfusions and medicines, and the other accouterments of privilege. And from this they can dictate a plan for everyone? Some reality checks should be cashed before this goes further.

Read more Read less

IQ2

5 December 2013 - 06:43 AM

On 2013-12-05 01:43:06, Ryan wrote:Quite frankly this debate was a total sham. When Chris Masterjohn began to question the science Dr Barnard was using, the moderator told him this was…

On 2013-12-05 01:43:06, Ryan wrote:
Quite frankly this debate was a total sham. When Chris Masterjohn began to question the science Dr Barnard was using, the moderator told him this was 'a personal attack'. IF a scientist is not allowed to question scientific studies and look at the details, then this debate is simply not about science. I, for one, prefer to include a deeper and detailed look at science when making health based decisions

Read more Read less

IQ2

5 December 2013 - 06:42 AM

Where do you find these healthy vegans all the ones I know are pale and limp and weak?

Read more Read less

IQ2

5 December 2013 - 06:39 AM

On 2013-12-05 01:39:13, Ahmad wrote:Neal Barnard is an amazing scientist; I've read lots of books about nutrition (not necessarily with a Vegan view) and the most credible and well referenced…

On 2013-12-05 01:39:13, Ahmad wrote:
Neal Barnard is an amazing scientist; I've read lots of books about nutrition (not necessarily with a Vegan view) and the most credible and well referenced works I've ever seen were written by him. I congratulate him on winning this debate tonight and wish him success in bringing his message to more and more people.

Read more Read less

IQ2

5 December 2013 - 06:35 AM

Vegan eating was a big fail for me! I am now a healthy omnivore!

Read more Read less

IQ2

5 December 2013 - 06:34 AM

On 2013-12-05 01:34:17, Erica wrote:Nothing is more "specist" (believing that our species is superior to others) than believing humans don't have to be part of the natural cycle--that somehow we…

On 2013-12-05 01:34:17, Erica wrote:
Nothing is more "specist" (believing that our species is superior to others) than believing humans don't have to be part of the natural cycle--that somehow we are exempt, and can "do better" than that. Saying that "well animals do [x] but we don't have to" is the ultimate in "specism". Talk about hubris. When we try to override, or work around, the natural cycles of life and death--which include animals in the process--the results aren't sustainable, and are often disastrous. For example, they sited "vegeganic" farming. But where are those nutrients coming from? All plants need nitrogen, phosphorous and potassium to grow (the basic "NPK" you find in plant food). Phosphorus comes from two sources: animals (e.g., lots in bone) or rock, which has to be mined. There isn't a lot of phosphorus left in the ground on this planet--we're going to run out of it soon, just like topsoil and water--and where it exists, it always runs next to radioactive ore. So to get it out requires major mining operations, which leave HUGE piles of radioactive tailings behind, which then leaches into the water and particalizes into the air. EVerything--animals, plants, native peoples, get sick and die, for miles around. So to say that "vegeganic" farming is more humane and allows us to grow food without killing is shortsighted. It can't be done without causing all kinds of suffering and death--it just isn't in your backyard, so you think your hands are clean.

Read more Read less

IQ2

5 December 2013 - 06:33 AM

On 2013-12-05 01:33:03, Seth Pajak wrote:Humans do not need to live on the flesh of animals. It is more efficient and more healthy to live on a plant based diet.…

On 2013-12-05 01:33:03, Seth Pajak wrote:
Humans do not need to live on the flesh of animals. It is more efficient and more healthy to live on a plant based diet. Most of the plant product that is fed to animals turns into manure and not food. This is a total waste and pollutes the rivers and wells. Plant based agriculture is clean and kinder to the animals than is livestock agriculture. It's nice eating your food knowing that no animals were killed so that you could eat. I hope everyone enjoys that feeling.

Read more Read less

IQ2

5 December 2013 - 06:33 AM

On 2013-12-05 01:33:00, Gill Jacobs wrote:
How can the proposers of the motion say that animals encourage soil degredation? That is ludicrous! Animals actually sequester carbon into the soil when eating grass, and help the planet. What doesn't help the planet is the deforestation of land to grow soya to feed vegetarians unhealthily, and feedlot animals, equally unhealthily. How are you going to persuade the Inuit to be vegan or vegetarian? They eat/ate a diet appropriate for their climate and what is available there, (before a Western diet of high carb/high sugar was introduced) which does/did not include enough year round plants to keep them alive or warm. They need a high fat diet which they get/got from fish and animals. Its ridiculous to say that most diabetes is because of meat eating. More and more research is showing that diabetes is high because of high carbohydrates, including the ubiquitous corn syrup in the US, which turns into sugar. OK, so animals fed grains are unhealthy because of their bad ratio of omega 3 to 6, but not grass fed animals. Also, all traditional societies that rely on animal protein have some form of spiritual connection with those animals that expresses gratitude to them for their gift of life, and for our interdependence. Have you ever met a vegetarian lion? The animal world is 'cruel' for survival, and when we acknowledge our gratitude for what animals provide for us, when treated humanely, we also are able to deal with the complexity of life, and refuse to stoop to the moral high ground so often dished out by vegetarians and vegans. Finally, where are the two, three or four generation studies on vegetarian and vegan diets? We know from Weston A Price that many generations of indigenous people were healthy over many generations with animal protein and fats. If vegetarians did not have artificial B12 supplements what would they do? Yes, meat eaters can get ill if they overdo factory farm meat which is bad for you, along with overdosing on sugar and not enough healthy vegetables. But I have come across too many tales of vegetarians who succumb to sickness after a while, and are forced to change their diet to get well. And this on a diet of fresh and organic plants. Maybe they eat too many unhealthy carbs and grains without the healthy animal fats? With more and more studies revealing how cancer cells are sugar dependent, they show that a nutrient dense diet (ketogenic) is one way to starve them out. As most carbs turn to sugar, and vegetarians are more dependent on carbs, how can they say that less vegetarians have cancer? It just does not stack up. I respect vegetarians for their principled stand on what they see as a more considerate approach to animals, by choosing not to eat them. But that implies that I am cruel and unthinking. I am not. I feel connected to animals, and am deeply grateful to the farmers who tend them, on my behalf. I refuse to project onto animals my own inability to deal with complex emotions. I refuse to anthropomorphise animals in the way that the Animal Rescue Sanctuary debater did when he told us about the happy rescued turkey who gave him hugs! That is pure Walt Disney to my mind. Or as Joel Salatin puts it the Bambification of animals, which sentimentalises animals and is partly responsible for the problems we now have over what constitutes a healthy diet.

Read more Read less

IQ2

5 December 2013 - 06:24 AM

On 2013-12-05 01:24:43, Sue wrote:the only variable in the studies everybody is referencing is meat? what about crap foods, they don't have a role?

On 2013-12-05 01:24:43, Sue wrote:
the only variable in the studies everybody is referencing is meat? what about crap foods, they don't have a role?

Read more Read less

IQ2

5 December 2013 - 06:18 AM

On 2013-12-05 01:18:08, Dawn wrote:OMG _ the pro-kill-it-gut-it-and-eat-it side is so desperate. It's just sad to try to argue when you really have nothing backing you up except money. Science…

On 2013-12-05 01:18:08, Dawn wrote:
OMG _ the pro-kill-it-gut-it-and-eat-it side is so desperate. It's just sad to try to argue when you really have nothing backing you up except money. Science does not support eating animal-products. Period. Look at any valid study and you'll see that whole foods, plant-based diets are far superior to any (factory-farmed or other) animal-based diet.

Read more Read less

IQ2

5 December 2013 - 06:17 AM

On 2013-12-05 01:17:09, Viana wrote:Let nature take care of nature. Let man CARE FOR nature.

On 2013-12-05 01:17:09, Viana wrote:
Let nature take care of nature. Let man CARE FOR nature.

Read more Read less

IQ2

5 December 2013 - 06:16 AM

On 2013-12-05 01:16:43, scott wrote:joel salatin is awesome

On 2013-12-05 01:16:43, scott wrote:
joel salatin is awesome

Read more Read less

IQ2

5 December 2013 - 06:15 AM

On 2013-12-05 01:15:21, Tennille Hansen wrote:Trim Healthy Mama is a book that is a perfect approach to the fact that eating meat CAN lower blood pressure, balance blood sugars and…

On 2013-12-05 01:15:21, Tennille Hansen wrote:
Trim Healthy Mama is a book that is a perfect approach to the fact that eating meat CAN lower blood pressure, balance blood sugars and lower the risk of heart disease. You absolutely eat meat & lower risks of all sorts of diseases....it's all about balancing our insulin levels.

Read more Read less

IQ2

5 December 2013 - 06:12 AM

On 2013-12-05 01:12:57, Sue wrote:so . . . processed foods, including GMO fruits, vegetables, and grains, play no part in the long list of maladies being discussed here???

On 2013-12-05 01:12:57, Sue wrote:
so . . . processed foods, including GMO fruits, vegetables, and grains, play no part in the long list of maladies being discussed here???

Read more Read less

IQ2

5 December 2013 - 06:11 AM

On 2013-12-05 01:11:36, Jorge Catalan wrote:All beings feel and I do not think carnivorous animals are bad animals for eating other animals. CAFOs are wrong, YES. But eating other species…

On 2013-12-05 01:11:36, Jorge Catalan wrote:
All beings feel and I do not think carnivorous animals are bad animals for eating other animals. CAFOs are wrong, YES. But eating other species is just natural.

Read more Read less

IQ2

5 December 2013 - 06:05 AM

On 2013-12-05 01:05:32, MeatLover wrote:The more people who choose to become vegetarians, the more meat for me - yay!!. Rock on, folks. I'll enjoy my protein while you all look…

On 2013-12-05 01:05:32, MeatLover wrote:
The more people who choose to become vegetarians, the more meat for me - yay!!. Rock on, folks. I'll enjoy my protein while you all look weak and unhealthy.

Read more Read less

IQ2

5 December 2013 - 06:03 AM

Where did you find this guy Masterjohn? What clinical studies has he done to discredit Neal? None? Has he gone to talk to Neal's past patients and done health histories…

Where did you find this guy Masterjohn? What clinical studies has he done to discredit Neal? None? Has he gone to talk to Neal's past patients and done health histories with them to see their progress? What's he standing on?

Read more Read less

IQ2

5 December 2013 - 06:03 AM

On 2013-12-05 01:03:17, MT, Congenital Heart Disease patient wrote:I don't want to start a big fight with people here but I am just curious. My partner is vegan and I…

On 2013-12-05 01:03:17, MT, Congenital Heart Disease patient wrote:
I don't want to start a big fight with people here but I am just curious. My partner is vegan and I really tried to be as well. We followed good vegan diets with almost no processed foods. After about a year we went and got blood tests - my partner was fine and I was severely deficient in calcium and iron, to the point where I was told I would need a blood transfusion and could break a bone really easily. Yet we both ate the exact same diet 100%. Why did this happen??? The only difference between us (apart from the fact that I am a woman and my partner is a man - and I did drink extra calcium fortified soy milk to accommodate this) is that I am on several medications for a life threatening heart condition that I have since found out cause difficulties with mineral absorption. At the moment I am dealing with this by taking even more vitamin pills but am being hassled by my doctor to eat red meat and drink milk. I am thinking of including a small amount of free range meat/ eggs to make up for this (and get rid of tablets that probably contain animal products anyway - not that the label would tell you) but how does one in a situation like mine get sufficient vitamins and minerals from a vegan diet? Apart from my calcium and iron issues, my liver has gotten better on this diet (it was destroyed by a combo of medication and processed foods). I have cut out some of my medications from being healthier, but alas can not get rid of them all.

Read more Read less

IQ2

5 December 2013 - 05:58 AM

On 2013-12-05 00:58:04, Michaela Conley wrote:Wonderful debate! Thank you for helping to keep this in our collective consciousness.

On 2013-12-05 00:58:04, Michaela Conley wrote:
Wonderful debate! Thank you for helping to keep this in our collective consciousness.

Read more Read less

IQ2

5 December 2013 - 05:57 AM

On 2013-12-05 00:57:20, Alexis wrote:Human evolve to eat an omnivorous diet. To suggest otherwise flies in the face of science, and emerges out of the same hubris that assumes that…

On 2013-12-05 00:57:20, Alexis wrote:
Human evolve to eat an omnivorous diet. To suggest otherwise flies in the face of science, and emerges out of the same hubris that assumes that humans are superior to animals, or kinder, more compassionate. We are PART of nature, and PART of the food chain. THE END.

Read more Read less

IQ2

5 December 2013 - 05:37 AM

On 2013-12-05 00:37:40, Annette West wrote:I am 57 years old and have been a vegan for 14 years. I stopped eating animals after I saw how cruel factory farming is.…

On 2013-12-05 00:37:40, Annette West wrote:
I am 57 years old and have been a vegan for 14 years. I stopped eating animals after I saw how cruel factory farming is. I have enjoyed the health benefits of a plant based diet as a fringe benefit. My contemporaries have ailments that I do not have and I am convinced it is in large part because of my diet. My weight is the same as when Iwas in my twenties and I do not exercise probably as much as I should.. My blood work that my physician orders every 6 months as part of a regular check up is better that any of his patients in my same age group. It is not difficult to sustain a vegan diet. I eat delicious foods that are easy to prepare. I have never one time considered going back to meat.

Read more Read less

IQ2

5 December 2013 - 05:26 AM

On 2013-12-05 00:26:20, Mary Smythe wrote:I have been vegetarian for 28+ years. I am the ONLY 40+ year old that takes ZERO medication, weigh an ideal weight without working out…

On 2013-12-05 00:26:20, Mary Smythe wrote:
I have been vegetarian for 28+ years. I am the ONLY 40+ year old that takes ZERO medication, weigh an ideal weight without working out and have ZERO health issues! That's no coincidence! It is because of my diet. I chose to STOP eating SOULS when I was 16 years old becuase I knew it was MURDER and was wrong. You DO NOT need meat to live! The problem is the fact that we take animals as our property and do whatever we WANT to them. They don't give us consent, they don't tell us to kill them. In fact, when they are going to slaughter, they FIGHT it! I should know-I used to be married to a dairy farmer. It is all CRUEL, WRONG, and SELF RIGHTEOUS. "Human beings" possess the LEAST AMOUNT OF HUMANITY than any other being on the planet because of their greed, ignorance, and cruelty. That is a fact, plain and simple. Oh and by the way, I know 2 people who got colon cancer because the doctor said their diet was too meat heavy. Oh well. Two less murderers on this earth.

Read more Read less

IQ2

5 December 2013 - 05:26 AM

...ok.... Chris Masterjohn, I just read your "experience with vegetarianism"..... uh.... you basically ate a bunch of processed food and it doesn't sound like much fruit, vegetables basic grains and legumes. Your experience of vegetarianism is so far from what Neal Barnard recommends, of course you'll have problems. Whole foods bud, you didn't eat whole foods. Processed fake meat as a staple???? Why would you think that is healthy. Fruit, veg, legumes and grains is the real deal. Get a clue kid.

Read more Read less

IQ2

5 December 2013 - 05:24 AM

On 2013-12-05 00:24:20, Lee wrote:Dr. Barnard is not credible.

On 2013-12-05 00:24:20, Lee wrote:
Dr. Barnard is not credible.

Read more Read less

Choose a Topic

Recent Debates